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If you want to invest in a drug delivery company buy SNG. Those guys have seen their shares drop from £2.00 to 4.0p when it is seen their drug delivery does not work.
This target company that the boss is aiming to do an RTO want to tap the markets and is doing so to issue more shares. they are not profitable and earning are years away. No prospects here guys. Unless the boss is expecting to stay on and issues shares to buy this target so he can keep his job and the gravy train running. Better that they have not found an RTO and returned the cash. Who wants to be in another speculative business with the same people you had trouble with for years? These guys do not give a toss for shareholders. They do not want and end of their salaries for doing nothing and the benefits that flow with it. For God sake vote NO when you get the opportunity. Take the cash and say no thanks.
Since we share holders put a stop to Robin Young’s pay day loans with his mates at Crede he has hated pi’s with a passion.
My view is take an rto as quick as possible and get this back to the market so shares can be sold.If this is left to the current board to redistribute funds to share holders we I’ll have a very long time to wait and much less when or if we ever get it.Get this lot gone before they can leave us with nothing
MD
Agness
Would it hinder or help your case for anyone else interested to use the same wording as yourself ?
Can some peeps using different wording get a different result?
if you go to all this trouble and get capital return result, does that apply to all others or is each case assessed separately? If so it seems unfair its the first applicant who has does all the work and others don't have to.
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT OTHER AMC HOLDERS CAN DO WHICH WOULD HELP YOU.
For the time involved is it worth sending email or letters with the document you are suggesting asking amc to confirm its capital repayment.
nb after your previous musings on this I was going to put it it the tax form under capital loss uk share.
Agniessearner; I'm merely pointing out what the likely outcome will be if holders vote against the proposal. Personally, I don't care if holders vote for/against or not at all as my remaining investment here is no longer significant.
I expect few will even bother voting on the proposal regardless of what it is but its important that holders thinking they will automatically get the remaining cash in dividend format may be disappointed , as once they delist, there may be no opportunity for holders to monetize what's left of their investment for years.
One could reasonably expect the pharmaceutical company to have a mkt cp higher than its cash,this is, of course, in no way guaranteed but is likely so the shares can then be cashed in for a higher than cash price once the listing is back on the market.
I don't see the point in refusing the offer without considering it as some here intend as the outcome is then in no way certain and I may have my capital frozen for potentially years as it dwindles down in value whist they spend it seeking other opportunities.
If RY states in the prospectus rns that if the proposal is rejected they will pay the remaining cash as a dividend then I understand some may find this attractive but I very much doubt this will be the case.
He will simply delist and seek other opportunities, taking as long as he possibly can on each proposal.
That's why I think the best way to realise your cash here may be to go along with the offer ( providing it has some attraction that the market
will like) and then sell at a hopefully higher than cash price once listed but its up to each individual to make their own decision on what is best for their own personal circumstances.
Gwm121 as explained before when I submit my tax return for 2023/2024 I am not going to put my £60 of dividends in the foreign dividends section of mt tax return but I am going to provide information in the white box section of my return and I am going to attach a word document to my tax return that will be 15 to 20 pages long and I will provide reasons as to why I believe it is a return of capital.
HMRC will then disagree and then they will amend my tax return to include the foreign dividend and charge me dividends tax on £60k.
I will then appeal against their amendment to my tax return and then there will be correspondence between HMRC and myself and if we cannot come to an agreement then it will have to go to a tax tribunal.
If you read the John Buckingham case you will see that one Inspector of Taxes agreed that the majority of the dividend was a return of capital and the remainder was income in the hands of John Buckingham and the other Inspector who reviewed the case was of the opinion that it was all income in the hands of Mr Buckingham.
The First Tier tribunal agreed with the first Inspectors opinion!
As I said this is all so unnecessary if the Board had sought advice.
If you send the Board a message via the AMC wesbite they do not even have the courtesy to reply!
AGE
Agness
So will we each go to a tribunal individually with an accountant advisor tax expert? £££££££s
Would seem strange that for most long term holders with an average of say 10p, recouping 1.8pfrom the assetts sale, and say 2p from the eventual sale of the residue, should pay tax on the LOSS incurred...... (buy 10p sell 4p)
I really don't want the worry in the background of any uncertainty here. If the rto isnt voted through and cash returned, depending what they call it you might be paying top rate tax on all your amc loss!!!!!!
It would save enormous heartache money and worry for ry to rns that this was capital return.
Is it worth a number of lth all sending an email same wording to amc and brokers politely /desperately / requesting this?
Do you know what the best emails are currently?
TheChessMaster, you are doing a good job of trying to convince shareholders to vote in favour of the RTO!
But you have not convinced me!
I will await to see their proposal re an RTO but in the mean time I would like to form a Share Action Group as quickly as possible as that way we will all know in advance what support we can muster to block an RTO if we do not like it
If we do like the RTO then we can influence the new Boards plus Robin Young's future actions!
As far as I can see there are no draw backs creating an AMC Shareholders Share Action Group as it empowers shareholders as we cannot rely on Boards to act in the shareholders best interests!
There are 130 members in our Scirocco Energy PLC (SCIR) Shareholders Share Action Group and we have demonstrated our combined power by blocking the Board's ability to do any more share placings!
Over a period of 13 years SCIR has received £37,414,000 from issuing shares and the Board have been paid total remuneration including share based payments of £5,037,000 and the Company is currently worth £2.7m!
AGE
If they do that then legal action will commence!
AGE
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As I said, Those automatically voting against the proposal will not automatically get the remaining cash.
If the proposal is rejected, I fully expect them to delist and seek other opportunities whilst squandering the remaining cash, they can stay delisted for years.
So holders who want to see some return need to give careful consideration as once the delist, there 's no certainty at all that you will ever get any capital back.
mining is on its ****, nickel & other metals have all crashed so until the cycle turns again there's little point speculating in them.
therefore i can see why ry has not chosen to go down this long depressing road again.
sure,pharmaceuticals are equally as high risk and always a long shot but as i say this proposal may offer the best option to monetize whats left of our investment if the market likes the story.
ry will not be drawing salary on this so he only
gains if the asset increases in value so one could argue ry will, for once, be aligned with shareholders....or so it seems !
TheChessMaster, you are doing a good job of trying to convince shareholders to vote in favour of the RTO!
If they do that then legal action will commence!
AGE
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As I said, Those automatically voting against the proposal will not automatically get the remaining cash.
If the proposal is rejected, I fully expect them to delist and seek other opportunities whilst squandering the remaining cash, they can stay delisted for years.
So holders who want to see some return need to give careful consideration as once the delist, there 's no certainty at all that you will ever get any capital back.
As I said, Those automatically voting against the proposal will not automatically get the remaining cash.
If the proposal is rejected, I fully expect them to delist and seek other opportunities whilst squandering the remaining cash, they can stay delisted for years.
So holders who want to see some return need to give careful consideration as once the delist, there 's no certainty at all that you will ever get any capital back.
If the dividend is income in the hands of shareholders then we have to pay dividends tax on it depending upon the total amount of the dividends and this is not going to reduce the tax base cost of our shares.
If it is a return of capital then the special dividend is not subject to dividends tax and it does reduce the tax base cost of our remaining shares.
I have some AMC shares where the dividend of 1.80 p per share is more than I paid for them so I will make a profit on them but the majority of my shares cost more than the special dividend and any 2nd dividend should we receive it if the RTO is rejected.
AGE
Gwm121 it was me who provided information that the special dividend was a return of capital rather than income in the hands of shareholders which would be subject to UK dividends tax if your shares are held outside of a tax advantaged wrapper such as an ISA.
The problem is that HMRC will argue that it is a dividend so it is subject to dividends tax as when something falls within a grey area they will be argue that falls into an area where they can tax you on it.
They will do so on the basis that it is called a special dividend and a dividend is income in the hands of shareholders so it is subject to dividends tax.
The Board have not provided shareholders with sufficient information as they only produce a consolidated balance sheet however distributable reserves are based upon the balance sheet of AMC PLC and not the AMC PLC Group.
There is a first tier tax tribunal case called John Buckingham V HMRC which is similar to AMC's situation however first tier tax tribunal cases do not create a binding precedent that can be applied in our situation.
I suspect that we will have to go to a tax tribunal to obtain a decision!
This is all so unnecessary as the Board should have done their job properly and sought tax advice on the tax implications of paying a special dividend.
AGE
Hi Geng,
Yes, a lot of your calls have been bang on the money. My Average was about 1.75p so got some back with some more to come.
The outcome of Kun Manie was disappointing to everyone, a stark reminder of country risk and Black Swan events.
Personally, I added a chunk after disposal on the potential to double my money inside of 12 months either by the 2nd dividend or an RTO which would need to be worth more than the remaining cash. The rest I put into Kefi which i'm hoping has good value to come.
Will obviously read the proposal, but i won't be voting for it as expect a sizeable MCAP valuation to get their hands on our 5m.
Of course, it could be a ploy to drive out alternative deals and better terms from others (i'd definately consier another mining play).
It says something that I never considered a Nickel Mine exploration play in the Far East of Russia risky but a UK pharma i do
Hi CT,
Good to hear from you after so long and see you still have a sizeable holding. They must have got an extension from AIM because they have something in the pipeline.
Pretty much sold out after the divi, just hang around here out of morbid curiosity. I've made a lot of money out of AMC since 2009 as it has always been a great trading stock with quite a predictable chart but the good old days are over.
Agree with you let's vote it down and take AMC outside and shoot it!
They must
Agness
Have you lost money on amc?
If the special div was dividend not capital return when you eventually sell all amc you will have paid tax on a LOSS, (as part of this loss was special divi !!)
There was one knowledgeable poster who replied to me on this, ive got copies in my tax files somewhere, who said it was most definitely capital return, referring to different bank accounts et all, (far above my knowledge) Ill dig them out and post them if you wish.
IF an enquiry is raised the issue will be the large cost of a s[ecialist tax advisor accountant to discussit with the revenue, and the worry of a possible investigation over years to come. By then amc will be gone, presumably ii will close the board, and we will all have to get our tax advisors individually.
All this could have been avoided if amc had called it capital return not special dividend. (after advice)
However good amc investment is I will sell in this tax year if I am able so at least the whole amount returned is in one tax year.
I met RY on many occasions and invested on his personality and amazing drill results. It was confusing he never bought large amounts of shares with his own money. it was then disappointing to watch bad business decisions coupled with no news/delayed news, and his continued drawing of (HIGH) salary when the exploration stopped.
There are no fee no win companies after compensation re Woodford and Eros Media. I hope they don't see an opportunity here.
Slowlyslowly,
From the RNS dated 05.08.22 AMC have said they would distribute a 2nd dividend if the RTO is not approved.
"After Completion of the Disposal, the Company will become a cash shell and will seek to complete a reverse takeover which will require Shareholder approval within 12 months. Should an acceptable reverse takeover opportunity not be identified and approved by the Shareholders, the remaining funds from the transaction less costs shall be distributed as a second special dividend.
Interesting that todays RNS implies that AMC will remain suspended until the vote as opposed to de-listing this Friday.
RNS dated 5 August 2022
The Company has received tax advice that the Disposal is unlikely to attract capital gains or withholding tax.
There is no CGT or withholding tax on the disposal of the shares in the subsidiary that owned the mining licence however that does mean that there are no tax implications for the payment of the 1.80 pence special dividend yet it included in the same RNS and no mention of the tax implications for shareholders!
AGE
Because the Robin Young will join the Board of the Pharma Company and he has mining knowledge but obviously not even basic tax knowledge or common sense to ask their solicitors are there any tax implications for AMC shareholders if we pay them a special dividend!
AGE
Hmm... Two options here, assuming they pull this off and it gets as far as a shareholder vote. Shareholders vote for the RTO. Shareholders vote against the RTO.
If they vote for it, the board of AMC will be replaced by new execs currently driving the pharmaceutical company they want to merge with.
If they vote against it, the current board of AMC will remain in post, and shareholders will need to trust that board to wind up and return the cash to shareholders rather than keeping things ticking along.
Those with a negative view of the AMC board, why would you vote to retain that board and trust that they will now serve shareholders by returning the residual cash, rather than voting to replace that board with a fresh one that has a plan for how to use that money?
Shadowless the last interim accounts to the 30 June 2023 shows that they had $6.314m of cash and cash equivalents.
8 Months have passed since then so they must have spent between $1m to $1.5m since then.
Let's summarise what the Board have done in the last year or so
They sold the mining licence for $35m (They are to be congratulated on that achievement as we could have lost all our money)
They paid a special dividend of 1.8 pence per share to shareholders but to date they have failed to issue guidance on whether the special dividend is considered to be income in the hands of shareholders so subject to dividends tax or whether it is a return of capital.
If they would have sought tax advice then they would have loaded it up onto their website.
On the basis they have not done so is a strong indicator that they did not seek tax advice on this very important matter.
What competent Board would get shareholders to approve the payment of special dividend without first obtaining tax advice.
The RNS stated that they are no tax implications on the sale of the subsidiary company that owned the mining licence however this only relates to Amur Minerals PLC sale of the subsidiary.
The Board of AMC have left all shareholders in a difficult position tax wise!
My dividend was over £60k so I do not want to be hit with UK dividends tax at the following rates:
Tax band Tax rate on dividends over the allowance
Basic rate 8.75%
Higher rate 33.75%
Additional rate 39.35%
I would have had more faith in the Board of AMC if they would have sought tax advice!
AGE
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md and cm agree,
for me, who has only a few million shares left, worth seeing what is proposed until deciding. as thechessmaster has stated the proposal might excite the market's imagination which may result in an exit point higher than the current cash value.
currently, they may have £3m-£5m (*** packet calculations, or should i say vaper packet calculations for the youngsters ) 0.0021p to 0.0035p.
reminds me a little of general industries rto of immupharma!! when was that 2006? i was a youngster then.
Because it takes time to form a Shareholders Share Action Group and we need to be prepared and ready to take action should we need to do so!
From memory AMC hit a high 43p a low of 0.60p so I have had enough of jam tomorrow that never arrives from the Board of AMC!
AGE
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Why not just see what is presented then give it some thought instead of circling the wagons and breaking out the guns
MD
md and cm agree,
for me, who has only a few million shares left, worth seeing what is proposed until deciding. as thechessmaster has stated the proposal might excite the market's imagination which may result in an exit point higher than the current cash value.
currently, they may have £3m-£5m (*** packet calculations, or should i say vaper packet calculations for the youngsters ) 0.0021p to 0.0035p.
reminds me a little of general industries rto of immupharma!! when was that 2006? i was a youngster then.
Let's see what the prospectus is and then decide.
Refusing the offer outright without consideration may not be the best option as companies can remain delisted for years- so serious consideration should be given to any offer as there's no guarantee they will payout the remainder even though this was stated in an earlier rns.
The new company may catch the markets attention early on when it comes to market and this may allow those wanting out, to cash in at a better price than current cash, and as I said, there's no guarantee of getting the current cash if the offer is refused as they can remain delisted for years and look for other opportunities whilst squandering the remain cash, so the offer is worth serious consideration.
Everyone on here I would like to just make a quick suggestion here whilst this board is active today
Please take a Look at GCM it's a good entry point
right now the SP was under a penny a few weeks back today trading over 4p today, there's huge potential here.
It makes no difference to me whether you invest or not, I'm suggesting it hoping that you can claw back any losses made here
GCM are having a meeting with government of Bangladesh very soon hoping to get the green light to this project and if they succeed the prediction is the SP will be in the £££
PDYOR
Why not just see what is presented then give it some thought instead of circling the wagons and breaking out the guns
MD