Member Info for strictlybricks

Toma,

Galliford may or may not be a fine investment prospect, but that was not relevant to the point I was making - which was that, despite Crest's low PBV and the hammering it took yesterday, by one measure, it is ahead of the other house builders...

Strictly

Torna,

For the purpose of calculating acid test ratio, the order book doesn't count...

It's the £591m cash plus £754m current receivables = £1,345m against the £1,809m current liabilities...

I make no observation in respect of whether or not acid test is a worthy ratio, merely that it is an accounting yardstick...

And, in Galliford's case, I used the full year for June 2019 not the more current half time whistle, as I don't keep close tabs on that company as it has a seriously chequered past in my view...

I think a relevant point here, though, is that whatever Crest's overall balance sheet situation ~ and taken in the round, current & long term, it's not as good as probably most of the other builders ~ their current position is actually strong and I would suggest that's pretty important right now in order to hopefully get through this Covid era safely....

And their current PBV is very low.... currently just 0.70 as of just now by my reckoning....

So, a fair bit of grief priced in then...?

Especially when you consider the share price is now lower than it was at the start of 2013..!

Strictly

There's been a lot of market excitement following Crest's half time whistle these past two days and also a lot of comment here as a consequence...

However, if one steps back from a moment and applies the acid test ratio to Crest's balance sheet - the sort of thing an accountant might do to see if a company is in imminent danger of going belly up - there's a somewhat different perspective to be had.

For those who don't know, acid test ratio checks whether quick assets ~ which are considered to be current debtors plus cash at bank, can pay all current liabilities....

And I've just checked this, and admit I was a tad surprised myself...

I looked at Bellway, Barratt, Battersea Dogs Home (Bovis), Persimmon, Taylor Wimps, Vicky Pollard (Galliford), Berkeley, Redrow and Crest.

And Crest, on their latest figures, are the ONLY ONE TO PASS THIS TEST..!

Okay, Persimmon were close, and Bovis passed it on December's figures but I'm anticipating a nightmare there for the current six months having bought Vicky's house building division during that period...

So there you go...!

Strictly

"Still think bdev best value now, what does your system make of them?"
.................................

Nige,

Barratt aren't one of the companies I keep monthly book values per share for currently as they are 20% more expensive on a price to book value basis but, IMO, on a par with Bellway and Redrow in terms of value weighting....

So, still 20% more expensive, in other words, and may remain so as a price to be paid for being currently the only FTSE100 company of those three... obviously, if one or both the others make it into the FTSE100, as Bellway nearly did earlier this year, until covid put the kybosh on that, then that could level up that element of the playing field...

For that weighting, I'm taking into consideration such factors as:

Their overall ROE for the past few years has been slightly lower than Bellway's, although it has been rising from a lower point rather than falling from a higher point.

I have around a 12p discrepancy between declared h1 earnings for current year and what the balance sheet implies they've made - so I'm waiting on full year figures but it is a significant amount.

I bear in mind that, on the one hand, Barratt have nearly gone belly up twice during the period for which I have numbers on them which goes back to 1983 but, on the other, they are best in class in terms of HBF star rating as they're the only house builder with five stars every year since 2013 - though I have no idea whether that's worth anything in the real world..?

Their overall liabilities as a percentage of net balance sheet, as of most recent half year figures in each case, at 54% is on a par with Redrow and Taylor Wimps - both, as it happens, at 56%, but higher than Bellway at 27%.

Having said all the above, Barratt are nearer to being in the zone for me than Taylor Wimps, given that the latter has both a lesser weighting and a higher PBV.

For me, currently, of the big builders, it's Redrow, Bellway and Crest all in the zone and that's it.... of the others, it's difficult to talk about either Galliford or Bovis without being rude - so I won't!

And Persimmon are so expensive on a PBV basis that if their profitability takes a slide their share price could plummet... hard to believe that, even now, their PBV is nearly 2.5 - which is higher for a house builder typically than at a peak of a property boom with 2.0 or more normally proving to be increasingly toppy....

Of course, this is just a collection of viewpoints from me and upon which I make my investing decisions.... everyone else just has to do their own research and come to their own conclusions and I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone of anything here...

But the short answer to your question is that, after Crest, Bellway and Redrow, for me, Barratt are currently next in line to be in the zone and I have held their shares at other times.

Strictly

"Could you explain your idea with numbers. Could you also have a look at bdev (most cash, very healthy asset to liability ratio) and no quality issues."

Nige,

Not sure which numbers you're referring to, but if it was in respect of price to book values then as follows:

I start with a more accurate book value than is usual, as I update mine every month rather than three months after the accounting period end when the figures come out so, in other words, a very wrong figure for the most essential bit of raw data for PBV...

I have to work the BVPS out for myself, by inference of estimated EPS for current year, but I'm usually within 2% of the actual figure when the accounts are published and I'm happy with that as although I'll switch between house builders on thin perceived value gaps, they ain't THAT thin!

Long term ~ I mean, going back over 40 years ~ the boring reality for house builders, give or take, is that they sell for around 1.5 PBV on average...

Of course, they can, and do, vary wildly from that average through periods of time according to what excitement is going on in the wider world, but that is, give or take, what they in fact average...

Not all BVPS is equal, in my view.... a £1 of book value for Bellway is worth more than a £1 of book value for Bovis, for example - you only have to look at the long term average ROE of each to clearly see that... it amazes me that often the market awards Bovis a similar or even higher PBV than for Bellway, but I'm certainly not complaining about that..!

The tricky bit is assessing what that gap is worth and allocating a weighting to it.... calling the value, in other words.

But I think that's a much easier & safer task than trying to call the market - which is what anyone trading in the ordinary sense is trying to do...

My long term results ~ over a period of 20 years ~ say that I'm doing okay calling the value as I've made significantly more on average than by just remaining invested in any particular house builder share (and certainly not Bovis - aka Battersea Dogs Home as it is affectionately known in our circle!), but I do not attempt to call the market as I don't think I'm clever enough....

People don't tend to put performance numbers out here, and I'd be interested to know how well some of the contributors fare through trading based on anticipating price moves..?

I've beaten Bellway (calculated with divs reinvested on the day paid) by 4% a year since starting 20 years ago, but by nearly 12% a year since the start of 2013 when I consider I upped my game and also I was fortunate in making my first, and maybe only, pre-emptive move into cash/gilts to head off what I feared was coming down the pike...

You may be right, and it may still be coming, but I'm far too much of a wuss to wait outside of the market to see...?

Strictly

******* it down here, anyway finished At lindens now and starting at persimmons this morning let you know what the vibe is here. Seems strange they needed to raise that kind of money when they were saying they are cash rich and had a land bank for 10 years. Some figures are definitely not tallying up .
Gla

...................................................
Ben,

Cash is one thing, but if you take TW.'s overall liabilities as a percentage of net equity, as of the most recent balance sheet, they were 56%.

As a contrast, Bellway might have less cash that TW., but they are best in class on the other measure ~ which I consider to be more important (and in that, I'm possibly a minority viewpoint?) because, if a company can't pay its bills when they fall due then, technically, they're bankrupt! ~ as the overall debt to net equity for Bellway is less than half TW.'s at 27%.

However, if TW. were, in fact, to hold that cash raised in reserve instead of spending it, it would take their cash plus trade debtors figure higher than current liabilities, and so they'd pass the "acid test ratio".

In other words, their balance sheet would be pretty bomb proof...

Which would probably be quite a comfort blanket to shareholders in these times, albeit that it comes at some dilution of earnings for existing shareholders...

But no doubt they have, in fact, raised this money for the reasons stated, and anyway, the builders do also have Rishi's money forest to fall back upon if push comes to shove and we get a second wave, or whatever....

And completely separately ~ while I'm putting a comment up here (as the BWY share chat would be more usual for me...) ~ I'm interested, perhaps even curious, that regular contributor Nige here has gone, seemingly confidently, mostly to cash for the time being - and he being a veritable stalwart of this investing in house builders' malarkey (as am I - hence the moniker).

I did go up to two thirds to cash/ index linked gilts at the end of February/early March - so I didn't catch it spot on, unfortunately - but most of that has since gone back in and the residue that is out may well now stay out...

Like, no doubt, many of the investors commenting here, I've gone round and round in my mind about the possible pro's & con's of pulling more out again but, at the end of the day, the house builders are cheap on any long term price to book value basis and, barring a second coming of the sh.tstorm, they may yet not suffer more than a rather temporary partial interruption to their activities...?

And the fundamentals ~ i.e. too many people chasing too few houses ~ have hardly changed as things stand, so the uncertainty may prove to be fully priced in - given that to get back to normal, as a ball park, there's probably around a 50% price increase due from here on house builders at large...?

Strictly

Colinco,
"What was your thinking behind index linked gilts?"
......................................

Yes, I agree with you that deflation is a concern at large currently, but it isn't the thing I fear most...

I don't want to get into a long spiel here as I've written about all this ad nauseam on a blog a number of us share (also called Strictly Bricks, funnily enough....) but, in the longer term scheme of things, the bottoming out of interest rates through cycles has come at lower and lower points and has taken over two hundred years to arrive at where we are (google can provide...) and, as a consequence, quantitative easing has been created as a replacement , as I see it, as interest rate lowering has now run out of track unless state banks start to venture into the dark territory of negative interest rates...

And, as we've seen, governments round the world have found they've got away with QE so far and that it has seemed to be an easy tool to use...?

And this was before coronavirus, which governments are obviously having to throw an unspecified shed-load of liquidity at, and counting...

Traditionally, we know that governments have used inflation to ease the pain of war debt, and I don't see this as being much different, albeit at war with a very small and unseen enemy...?

I've been nursing a concern about serious inflation ever since the credit crunch, and have built up an increasing reserve of Index-Linked gilts since then...

I don't claim to understand them particularly well, and moving cash into them three weeks ago (I went about 65% cash, 35% still in house builders' shares - that's ALL I invest in, hence the moniker...) has cost me as they've dropped a bit (presumably due to the deflation fears you've referenced?) but only a smidgen of the comparable drop in shares, and I'm now down to just over a third in cash/gilts having started gradually moving back in, but now also have the equivalent in shares that I had before that move... (I've become more and more of the view that it's better to aim to be half right, half wrong - my new motto is "wussy investing rules, okay?").

So anyway, I appreciate that I lost a few percent on the Index-linkers I've just bought and sold within a few weeks, and also that that probably hasn't been helped by the government now looking to shift the linking from RPI to the lower CPI (something I hadn't been aware of when I bought them... duh...), but I have no other answer for myself about how to protect from the serious inflation I fear, if it comes, for liquid assets...?

And of course, DYOR and all that, and I'm not looking to influence anyone here - just trying to briefly explain my decision to buy these...

Strictly

W13Ken,

Most of the crew on my blog who have notified in have gone partly or fully to cash - especially the veterans of the credit crunch who have the scar tissue to show for it...

Personally, I'm now about two thirds Index linked gilts and the remaining third invested split about two thirds Bellway and one third Inland...

I'm just contemplating another blog post about all this.... eye of the storm or what...?

I mean, getting out is only half the process.... getting the timing reasonably right going back is another matter entirely...

Re the 20% a year, that's the average per year over 20 years.... within that, the two big bad boys of 2007 and 2008 were minus 38% then minus 62% respectively, followed by 2009, my biggest ever year percentage-wise (on smaller beer, unfortunately, given the pasting I'd just taken the previous two years..) which by magic took every £100 down to £23 then back up to £59 but, at least, very much onwards and upwards from there such that every original £100 remaining invested from the start of 2007 has now become £918.

I couldn't possibly call this year... I'm 13% down as far as things stand so, to achieve a decent result, two things would have to happen:

Firstly, the market would have had to have bottomed out well in time for some decent gain from there before the end of the year and, secondly, I'd have had to have got my timing reasonably right...!

And, more morbidly, I'm of an age at which I can't just poo poo the possible impact of the coronavirus itself on me if I happen to catch it - and my working assumption is that everyone will catch it in due course, and that it's a matter of when rather than if, and, if that doesn't happen, well - that's a bonus!

Strictly

PS. Is that W13 as in Ealing?

W13Ken,

Well, good luck with computing shares then - they are WAY ABOVE my pay grade...!

By the way, as you seem to be looking at PBV as a part of all this now, and I just put a post on the PSN chat (I'm not a fan) that includes a fair bit of consideration of that...

I have to admit I find Persimmon interesting - but only in that I don't trust them (I'm not the only one in that respect, it seems...) and I'm watching and waiting for it all to come out in the wash, at some point....

And if I'm wrong about them and they are the good guys after all, well, it hardly matters does it...?

Strictly

Before anyone pulls me on it, I've just realised I made a schoolboy error on the earlier post...

I'd said:

"In 2018, Persimmon's PBV was only 25.0% against Bellway 23.8% and Redrow 26.4%."

And that should, of course, have been ROE not PBV - so, my apologies....

Strictly

The last part of my post was clipped off...

Which was:

And they are backing up my gut feeling - which sunset777 might go along with as he's implied something along those lines....?

Could be a big day for Persimmon fans on Thursday, then...?

Strictly

The numbers for Persimmon are impressive...

If you take the period from start of 2013 to date - which encompasses all of King Jeff's reign - then money invested at the start would have given you a return of 517% with dividends invested on the day received...

Hardly shabby, is it...?

By comparison, Bellway on the same basis would have only given you 425%.

Actually, that's not so far apart then..?

Dig a bit deeper for the reason, and you find that, not only have Persimmon been paying out two thirds of earnings in dividends compared to Bellway's only one third (big dividends not being a good thing for shareholders through a period of such stonking profitability), there's also that, because Persimmon's price to book value is so high (3.4 against Bellway's 1.7), it's only giving investors half the return in yield that Bellway's dividend is giving its investors pound for pound pro rata...

And on twice the amount of money...!

Doubly painful, in other words...

So then come back to the price to book value start and finish for the above period of just over seven years...

Persimmon's starts at 1.41 and finishes at 3.39, and Bellway's starts at 1.11 and finishes at 1.72.

To take the PBVs back to their respective starts, Persimmon's share price requires reducing by 59% and Bellway's by 35%.

This would then bring down their respective overall performances for the seven years to:
Persimmon 209%
Bellway 274%

Bellway now comfortably ahead, then...

It is also fair to say that Persimmon's ROE has beaten Bellway's over the 10 years to 2018 by an average 5.4%, which is pretty impressive.

However, when you factor in that Persimmon's net assets fell by 30% after the credit crunch, but Bellway's only fell by 3% and break that 27% difference into tenths, that's 2.7% a year which halves the initially impressive 5.4% gap above...

Bearing in mind that the BoD were probably already drooling about their big bonus plan that they were intending to sell to the share holders, the foresight and planning is all rather impressive seeing that they'd just come through the credit crunch - which had posed an existential risk for at least two of the big house builders...

In 2018, Persimmon's PBV was only 25.0% against Bellway 23.8% and Redrow 26.4%.

Good, but not absolutely standout, in other words...

I don't hold any Persimmon, but we're now very close to Persimmon's full time result and I'm intrigued to see how they do....

I'm mindful that, pre-crunch, they regularly plumbed lower PBVs than 1.4.

So did Bellway and Redrow, of course, but a fall from 1.7 PBV to 1.4 PBV over a short period is nowhere near the sort of bad hair day for investors that a fall from 3.4 PBV to 1.4 PBV would be.

Apologies for so many numbers, and some may want to challenge some of them, but, if you agree with them, the thing about numbers is:

They are what they are!

And they are backing up my gut feeling - which sunset777 might go along

W13Ken,

Having started managing my own stuff in 2000, I had my "Damascene moment" about house builder shares in 2003, about the same time that, by doing a shed-load of number crunching, I came to understand that, to paraphrase Kipling, the numbers for the FTSE100 are "Twisted by knaves to set a trap for fools".

And, on the latter point, I'd rest my case on the fact that the FTSE100 index has barely moved in 20 years...

But I have, periodically, looked at other sectors and, for me, when you take into account the combination of strong underlying growth together with the very saleable asset base when things go Pete Tong, none comes close to house builders for me - being something of an investing wuss...

And the house builder shares game has yielded me an average annual gain of around 20% for the past 20 years and, while that might not satisfy a top notch hedge fund manager perhaps, it's more than good enough for the likes of me, guv....!

It's also motivated a lot of people from within in my circle to follow me into this over the years and, for my sins, for the past four years or so, I've been writing an investing blog for them about investing purely in just house builder shares (called Strictly Bricks, funnily enough...).

And now, having past the O.A.P. starting line several years ago, writing that and all the stuff that goes along with it in helping family & friends has become something of a job for me - though with somewhat more irregular hours...!

Strictly

W13Ken,

Do bear in mind that, if Bellway's price hit 5,470p this month, that would put their PBV on 2.2.

Putting aside any possible price impact of joining the big boys in the FTSE100, Bellway last hit 2.2 PBV in the 1990's, didn't stay there for long, and each time soon plummeted down below PBV 1.4.

So, careful what you wish for - and especially if you're moving money in rather than cashing out...!

Strictly

Demos,

Thanks for the heads-up here about Bellway getting to position 95, and also thanks to W13Ken for pointing out that it's now right on the threshold for 4th March at position 91.....

That aspect, i.e. the hokey cokey of the FTSE100, is not really one that's been on my radar, as it's an other-than-underlying-value consideration, but I've now had a look at that stock challenge website and saved it as a favourite - so, hopefully, I'm now "on it" with that one....!

And, Demos, I'll probably put something on the SB blog about this for everyone there.... so you might want to add a comment on that in due course if this is something which, unlike me, you've been paying attention to going back and therefore maybe have a somewhat better feel for what this may do for Bellway's PBV...?

Unlike, perhaps, most people, I don't see Bellway becoming a FTSE100 company as being good news, given the possibility that they may now, as a consequence, be taken up out of the value zone along with the likes Persimmon, Barratt and Taylor Wimps when all the tracker funds jump in, which is a bit of a bummer - but it is what it is and I guess we'll just have to embrace wherever it goes....

Strictly

Steph,

Re your comment:

"hi terr

board much quieter than TEF was. "
...............................................

There's more general house builder chat on the SB blog these days since the demise of TEF chat - to which you are signed up, I believe....?

So you could always log in there and connect up with Terrace, Cyber and James188 if you're looking to bounce some thoughts around...?

If you need a new link to sort that, just let me know... I think I've got your email address on my home computer but I'm on my laptop out in Spain at the mo until hopefully mid March, dodging the Dartmoor winter... :-)

Strictly

Tavernham,

If you scroll back through a few of my posts, you should quickly form the view that I very much rely on the numbers...

And, for EPS, and resultant ROE (I don't use ROCE), I rely on working with balance sheet BVPS year to year and half year to half year, adjusting for dividends paid.

So far so not too controversial among the people I chat about this stuff with on our blog and by email as well as on here - for the most part this is Cyberduck and James188 - but they don't entirely agree with my numbers on Redrow for last year so they may comment here if they see this...?

Using balance sheet BVPS figures, Redrow made 47.99p EPS H1 and 29.61p EPS H2 year to June 2019 - so 77.6p EPS for the year against the 92.3p EPS they declared with an ROE of 19.3% for 2019 compared to 26.4% for 2018.

The contentious bit is that I consider the so-called 30p B share return of shareholder equity last year a successful smoke & mirrors job from a short term marketing perspective but I don't want to get into all that again here now except to say that, in the end, you can't dodge the numbers when it comes to remaining BVPS and resultant PBV.

H1 2020 EPS by my reckoning is 36.16p against the declared 37.2p.

A full year 2020 EPS of 82p would put them on an ROE for the year of 18.8% by my reckoning which seems to me about the right ball park so that's what I've penciled in for them for 2020...

I'm well out of shape with the scribblers on this as they are 10p more than me on EPS and that is particularly against the grain as their track record has been to seriously under-estimate Redrow's earnings, but there you go, that was while Steve Morgan was still at the helm...

Anyway, this year's H1 EPS is 25% down on last year's H1, and Redrow uncharacteristically morphing into Vicky Pollard about this isn't likely to cut it much with the market, I guess - hence the disappointing market response..

I may be well off the mark but, speaking as an individual market research sample of one, this is how I see it...

Strictly

Nige,

I have a number of thoughts about Persimmon but some are not for discussion here and they generally come under the banner of my not trusting them - I'm happy to discuss this with you on the blog, though, which is by invite only, but you already have access to that...

But I don't consider I need to really consider all the other points given that the PBV for Persimmon is 3.0 and I consider that to be rather terrifying - even though my personal mantra on all this is that I'm more fearful of being in cash when I should be in shares than I am of being in shares when I should be in cash.

This relates to builders shares of course - like you, this is the only sector I invest in.

My fear of cash is two fold...

Firstly, that if I'm there, that might be the moment the world wakes up and decides it's seriously under-valuing builders' shares - I think you and I are of a similar view on this...?

My other concern is that the world wakes up one day and decides that it has morphed into a global Weimar Republic.

In the meantime, Persimmon may or may not resolve it's quality issues, and other aspects that I regard as a shadow, but, at 3.0 PBV, the price needs to drop by around 40% to be of any real interest to me...

Being a lazy git, I prefer the easy questions on any exam paper - and, to coin my son-in-law's phrase, Persimmon is in the "too-hard-drawer" for me.

But obviously, given its heady price, others don't agree - so mine is clearly a minority viewpoint.

Strictly

TMT,

I ran out of room to finish off in the last comment, hence the part 2 here...

You've given a list of pro-Persimmon factors, copied & pasted below...

.............................

"Bellway is significantly more exposed to a downturn, IMO, on the following key points:
Greater exposure to the high-priced southeast, which makes them more vulnerable to falling house prices in a downturn
Significantly less cash
PSN's ratio of plots in their landbank to annual completions is substantively higher than BWY's, which means they have more scope to reduce land purchases in a downturn
PSN's higher margin means they are better equipped to handle falling house prices or increasing costs due to Brexit or other factors
PSN is also perhaps less vulnerable to supply disruptions due to their own brick and roofing tile works"

...................................

To be frank, all these may well be valid, but I regard them as being above my pay grade in terms of what I take into consideration as for me it's pretty much all about particular numbers and especially since I consider I was partially mugged by the high regard I'd had for JDS at Telford - even though the numbers there were increasingly telling a different story (and I think I was a minority viewpoint there on that share chat at the time...?), and I lingered too long in the share yet not long enough to be around for the 350p offer - out the day the bombshell announcement confirmed my worst fears about them.... ouch, it hurt, but we all lived to fight another day (strictly bricks might be my name here, but it essentially stands for quite a number of people all pretty much investing to the same strategy - hence the"we all" - if it interests you, let me know...)

Anyway, enough on all that - I'm out in Spain at the moment and it's an hour ahead of Blighty - so it's almost midnight here now...

Strictly

TMT,

From your replies, clearly you look at this from a very much numbers-based perspective, the same as me, but it seems you're looking at different numbers to some extent - and that might lead you to a different view...?

But that's okay, as long as each approach works for its owner...

Firstly, you were correct in that, to use your word, I do see fiat money is possibly now "creaking", and maybe reaching it's sell-by date, but the more salient point there was that I don't see how the world can escape low interest rates easily any time soon...?

Someone once said, tell a big enough lie often enough, and most people will believe it - the big lie in this case, it seems to me, is that interest rates have to go up soon....

That's been suggested for nearly a decade now... not the least from Dapper Dan our Canadian pal in Threadneedle Street...

And the person who originated the comment above knew what he was talking about - it was Goebbels...

Anyway, with regard to Persimmon & Bellway, I don't take ROCE into account, I use ROE but do take into account balance sheet strength more generally.

I did have a discussion with Josh95 a while back here about ROCE... he was a big fan of ROCE, and of Crest at the time based on this, but they haven't stood up since - though I do now hold some of their shares as their PBV, IMO, justifies it despite the disappointing recent results which means I give them a negative 20% weighting against Bellway.

They are a recent example of a company on a high PBV, due to current performance at the time, then slipping and taking a pasting accordingly.

Big time.... Crest performance since the start of 2013, with divs reinvested on the day, 133% compared to Bellway three times that at 400% - that's what I call painful!

Anyway, at their respective last balance sheets, Persimmon had overall liabilities of 64% and Bellway were at 33% and best in class in this respect.

Since 1998, Persimmon have averaged 17.7% ROE and Bellway have averaged 17.4% ROE, a modest difference given the yawning gap in PBV of 3.0 vs 1.7.

And I don't entirely trust Persimmon, the reasons for which have been considered on our private blog (Strictly Bricks - my nom de plume here) but are not appropriate for a public forum discussion IMO..!

If we put aside what builders' shares might really be worth in a world of ongoing low interest rates (something that I think Nige, like me, gives a lot of consideration to...?), in the world of how the market has always viewed them over the past 35 years or so, 1.5 PBV is about the average over the long term and, IMO, PBV is safer to use as a steady comparator, as ROE, and therefore P/E, can wax & wane and, as with Telford pre-crunch, investors can get seriously caught out if they're not paying attention to that - just ask the musketeers who were long term TEF fans on that share chat - now no more (we still communicate outside of LSE, though...)

Strictly