Member Info for recklessferret

Neeeew.

Oh for heaven's sake- is that right?!! I give up. Why are at least 2 brokers stating in writing to me that the ISA and SIPP wrappers can be preserved. I have had enough. Off for an Indian now , then fence painting this weekend- things I can get to grips with. Back on Tuesday. iWeb never provided any info this week like they promised either. GLAH. We seem to need it.

Hi Dingo. I too am just trying to relay info ( so not arguing or attempting point scoring) but when you say: " I am using II not HL so I can request paper cert after decision and not lose wrapper.. " that is not the understanding I am getting from other Brokers who have agreed to allow continued ISA and SIPP wrappers after de-listing of Poly. Tokeep these tax breaks 2 fundamentals are needed- 1) a listing on a HMRC recognised exchange. AIX is recognised so thats OK. and 2) a Broker who is registered as an ISA and/or SIPP investment Manager. We are not going to get to be our own ISA Managers, so we need a Broker who is. So far so good, we have HL, AJ Bell and hopefully IWeb/ Halifax and ii all willing to go with this, even if they will not go so far as register to trade on the AIX exchange and so provide a trading facility.

HOWEVER, my understanding, from info received from HL and AJ Bell and also Jarvis, is that when you take a paper Share Certificate those shares become registered in YOUR name, not the Broker's (which I guess is pretty obvious). But that means they are no longer held by the ISA manager in the "pool" of Poly shares held by the ISA Manager Broker. You have full control of the shares, not the ISA Manager. Therefore, I believe, this is the reason "certificated" shares cannot be held within the ISA or SIPP - by obtaining a share certificate the shareholder has him/herself taken the shares out of the ISA /SIPP management wrapper.

That is my understanding anyway. ATB

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Hi Stan 55. Sorry to hear that. Iam not sure what you exactly mean by "screwed over", but if you are concerned that HL will not hold your Poly shares in an ISA or SIPP (or for all I know, in their "Fund and Share" trading account also) please see this thread and this post in particular post RE: AJ Bell -SIPP STATUS after delisting 25 May 2023 11:45.

Again, as with A J Bell I cannot say the info given to me is 100% guaranteed correct, but at least it is pretty clear and in writing that HL will continue to hold Poly stock in ISA's and SIPP's although you won't be able to trade them.

Hi Neeew

I can only re-post what I have from AJ Bell in writing in the Secure Messages page of the relevant account, and in full:-

"RE: CORPORATE ACTION - Polymetal International plc -

24/05/2023 17:22:46

Dear ****

Thank you for your message.

Unfortunately if you do withdraw the shares in certificated form, we will not be able to retain custody. They will be in your name whichalso means they will be removed from your SIPP and lose any tax benefits associated with the SIPP wrapper. Please be aware if you dowithdraw the shares from your SIPP it is classed as taking a benefit. The shares may need to move into your dealing account first via anagency cross in order to do so.

If you keep the share in your SIPP we will still receive dividend payments and credit them to your account. We expect the dividend to be paid as a cheque so there will be a slight delay in being credited. The dividend process will remain the same for you, albeit with a delay. If you do withdraw the shares, dividends would be sent to you directly.

If you have any further queries, please feel free to contact us.

Yours sincerely

Remi Akinbode

Dealing Services Team"

All I would add are my immediate thoughts when I read this message, ie that it was apparently written by someone who knew what was going on and had considered the implications for any dividend, including how a divi would be paid and the likelihood of a short delay in receipt.

So at least I have it in writing, and if we rely on it as I expect we will, I will also expect A J Bell to accept responsibility for any financial disadvantage incurred if it turns out to be incorrect.

Hi Jotom

Ref para 4 of your 25 May 2023 18:52 post. I don't have to imagine this - I am living it!

Sometimes it has felt that everything is conspiring to rob me of my "naughty Russian shares", including the CGT tax break reductions to a ridiculous £3K shortly, and the prospect of filling in those wretched CGT tax returns again. Sirius Minerals helpfully removed my need to worry about capital gains a few years ago now. After that debacle I discovered the hard way that FTSE 250 companies were not necessarily as safe and honest as one might have hoped or been led to believe, and have spread my investing net wider, and yes, a bit more cynically.

Hi FOOR

In response to your post about HL- this is what they have replied to me. Similar to A J Bell except dividend issue is not referred to as I had not taken it up with them.( Posted about this yesterday under "HL SIPP POLICY afer de" thread)

"Dear xxxx Thank you for your message.

If the proposal is approved and the shares delist from the London Stock Exchange, you will still be able to hold these within your HL SIPP and HL SIPP Income Drawdown account. However, you will be unable to sell these shares past the given deadline. [MY NOTE- "DEADLINE" refers to a previous HL message " we will be unable to trade them beyond 14th July, as it currently stands."]

You will be able to transfer the shares to another broker but you will need to check they can facilitate trades on the Astana International Exchange and are able to transfer them to the same type of account, i.e. SIPP."

So Hargreaves Lansdown will "retain custody"after de-listing and redom for SIPP shares, and by implication ISA shares(I don't have an HL ISA) This is what I am asking iWeb to do also.

Oh, and just for some contrast with A J Bell and their clear information, here is what Jarvis had to say about my trading account following Poly de-listing:

"Thank you for your email.

We are unfortunately unable to continue to offer a custodian service for these shares following the delisting as we will be unable to offer any facility for trading the shares and are therefore unable to realise the asset following the suspension.

"Therefore clients have the option to trade their shares prior to the suspension or alternatively if you wish to retain the value within an ISA or alternatively you have the option to retain the shares however these will be sent out to you as a certificate."

Cut and pasted exactly as written. Anyone have a clue what the second sentence is trying to say?!!

Many thanks

Kind regards

Re; "iWeb told be explicitly...." in my previous post.

I should have said, they told be over the phone- they were quite clear and I did ask several times, to confirm, as it seemed pretty important. As I say, awaiting written confirmation though.

Hi DC

You know I have had a suspicion that what A J Bell are offering, in particular as it affects SIPPS and by extension ISAs, should be feasible. We also know that there are lots of questions regarding what happens in the longer term to these accounts, and does it pose problems in respect of other corporate actions, in particular the share split?

I think the position I will take is that it will be possible to obtain a paper share certificate at a future stage, or better transfer shares in one's own name electronically on to AIX, or even better still find that these issues have resolved in a way I cannot yet contemplate!

I repeat what I posted the other day: iWebtold me explicitly more or less the same thing with my ISA account- stock can be retained in the ISA if preferred. iWeb replied to my enquiry about this by saying that a full statement from them would be released this week, so I am hoping they will confirm this.

I put 3 questions to AJ Bell yesterday- see thread "RE: HL SIPP policy post de" Not necesary to restate them here,. will just post what AJ Bell have written this a.m.:-

"Thank you for your message.

Unfortunately if you do withdraw the shares in certificated form, we will not be able to retain custody. They will be in your name which also means they will be removed from your SIPP and lose any tax benefits associated with the SIPP wrapper.

If you keep the share in your SIPP we will still receive dividend payments and credit them to your account. We expect the dividend to bepaid as a cheque so there will be a slight delay in being credited.

The dividend process will remain the same for you, albeit with a delay. Ifyou do withdraw the shares, dividends would be sent to you directly. "

Well done A J Bell- finally some clarity! I just hope they are right, but they clearly seem very confident.

Morning DC

The plot thickens. I have just extracted this notification from ASJ Bell sent to my partner who has a SIPP with them:-

"At present, [NOTE!] our position remains that we will continue to maintain custody of the certificated holding after the re-domiciliation takes place. The AIX is recognised by HMRC as a qualifying ISA market, so the shares will still remain eligible to be held in an ISA after the LSE delisting. The shares will also remain eligible to remain within a SIPP.

Prior to the redomicile taking effect, you have the following options:

· You may request to convert your holding to certificated form to be held directly in your own name - This request must be submitted by the 30th of June 2023.

· You may sell your shares prior to the trading suspension date - 14 July 2023.

· You may transfer your holding to another broker which supports trading on the AIX - This request must be submitted by the 30th of June 2023.

· You may retain your shares in your account and receive certificated holding under our nominee name that cannot be traded electronically."

So I have replied on my partner's behalf asking the following:

"1. If I request a share certificate in my own name will you still retain custody of those shares in my SIPP,which I would prefer? [ ie does the transfer from AJ Bell's "pool" of nominee shares into shares certificated in my own name mean that AJ Bell will no longer retain custody of them in my SIPP ]

2. If the shares are retained in my SIPP and Polymetal, as they have indicated they may wish to, pays a dividend after the corporate actions anticipated take place, will that dividend distribution be credited to my SIPP client account?

3. If a dividend IS paid, does it matter whether the shares are registered in my own name or AJ Bell as nominee (assuming of course that the answer to 1) above is YES, and I can continue to hold shares certiificated in my own name in my SIPP)"

I will advise on any response. I appreciate your listing all the other issues that arise out of what these brokers are saying and I agree with you- it seems a can of worms, but I am just reporting what (some of)the brokers are saying.

I suppose they do take the position that if they can continue REGISTRATION of the nominee shares with CSD part of AIX effectively just taking over as the company appointed registrar, then the fact that POLY will be listed on the HMRC"recognised" AIX exchange affords ISA/SIPP status, just like any other foreign stock on such an exchange.

Will keep you posted!

Re: Polymetal International plc - Delisting - 17 May 2023

Dear xxxx Thank you for your message.

If the proposal is approved and the shares delist from the London Stock Exchange, you will still be able to hold these within your HL SIPP and HL SIPP Income Drawdown account. However, you will be unable to sell these shares past the given deadline. [MY NOTE- "DEADLINE" refers to a previous HL message " we will be unable to trade them beyond 14th July, as it currently stands."]

You will be able to transfer the shares to another broker but you will need to check they can facilitate trades on the Astana International Exchange and are able to transfer them to the same type of account, i.e. SIPP."

So Hargreaves Lansdown will "retain custody"after de-listing and redom for SIPP shares, and by implication ISA shares(I don't have an HL ISA) This is what I am asking iWeb to do also.

I post this because it appears to be an alternative to sale or transfer for people such as myself with a small stock holding in an account- I still intend to transfer the bulk of my Poly shares onto AIX CSD by paper certificate route.

I don't know what HL's position is with regard to any dividend. If they are prepared to hold within nominee SIPP accounts then presumably they will have to keep that "pool" of nominee shares registered with AIX CSD in due course, and any divi paid will then have to be apportioned in HL client accounts.

This is what I have suggested previously on this board. On the face of it HL seem prepared to do so- hold the shares for clients but will not register on the AIX exchange (so no trading) but otherwise the stock remains within ISA SIPP rules.

I post all this with the caveat that I am only re-stating what HL have informed me im writing this morning. I do not pretend to have the knowledge to understand all the ins and outs of the issue of certificates, nomiunee accounts and registration issues, Polymetal doing away with paper certificates after redom, etc etc. But if HL say they can continue hold my Poly shares within a SIPP then for me that seems to be very good news.

DC2007 and Neeeew- thanks for that response. The trading aspect is not of concern- I just want to see that ephemeral divi!

Preferably in my ISA. I am still not sure why any div. can't be paid out.

Is it because my shares have to be listed SOMEWHERE before a dividend can be paid out to me, either directly by the company or its agents, Computershare and soon, the AIX Central Securities Depository. The CSD is not the AIX exchange of course.

However, I guess that issue IS not relevant to the question of ISAs and SIPPs for the simple resaon that to qualify under HMRC rules, a share does have to be listed somewhere, I believe, so if my shares were de-listed from LSE and remained unlisted anywhere else, they could not be a qualifying investment under those rules. So, duh, I think I have answered my own question. The shares have to be re-listed on AIX to benefit from ISA or Sipp wrappers.

But they can't at present at least benefit from those wrappers, because none of our UK and other brokers offering ISA accounts (eg Trading212= ISA ) are prepared to deal with AIX stock. Not sure if that is a Catch 22, but its close.

"After the re-domiciliation, the Company’s shareholder register will be transferred to AIX. AIX will reconcile

holders of paper certificates with a list of shareholders with accounts in AIX CSD, and allocate respective

amount of shares to their accounts. Paper certificates will no longer be valid."- From the company's Tabys guide.

So I assume the individual "paper certificates" will be registered by the broker with the company registrars Computershare who will then pass this info. to AIX CSD on re-dom/de-listing.

Does this mean that HL, iWeb Jarvis etc. will NOT be able/willing to retain their nominee "pool" of total shares ownership and register that ownership with AIX CSD, the future registrar of record for the company?

If they CAN do this for ISA and SIPP clients I believe they should, because after all as I have said, HL expressly acknowledged that POLY shares held on the AIX exchange do qualify for ISA and SIPP staus. These important benefits to clients of these brokers should not be lightly dismissed if they can be preserved, IMHO. Any views anyone- I am looking for confirmation that I m not just flying a kite here- but if there is something in this then I feel it should be pursued with all the brokers concerned, and the position made expressly clear to Poly. Polymetal have not actually countenanced the possibility of stock retention by UK nominee brokers in their presentation- only sale in advance or "forced liquidation"is the final option shown.

Hi ArranT. No I did not know that leaving shares in my ISA would deprive me of any Divi. On the face of it, my Ts&Cs require my broker to credit any distributions in repect of my stock to my account within 14 days. If the stock is held by iWeb in their pooled nominee account, and they receive a distribution from Polymetal's registrars, the n surely iWeb would have to remit my appropriate percentage of thatt distribution to my ISA account?

What am I missing please - something obvious and fundamental I expect!

This reply just received from Jarvis. "Good morning. Once the shares have been re registered into your name the shares will no longer be held by ourselves, instead a paper certificate in your name will be sent out to you to hold.

The registrars would then send any distributions due on the holding to your directly, these would no longer be received via your account with us. Alex Hutchings JARVIS"

My X-O shares are not ISA'd so a certificate is OK for me. Polymetal's registrar is currently Computershare. On re-dom IR have said that the registrar will be AIX, or AIX CSD. Whether Computershare or Polymetal will deal with notifying AIX of the paper shareholders I have no idea, but would hope so.

I had hoped, and in fact Jarvis IR had said to me on phone last week, that they would "retain" the stockholding, albeit non-tradeable, listed on the individual client's account. This would obviously be good news for ISA and SIPP holders, and I see that HL have stated that there is no reason why POLY shares should not be retained in such accounts, since AIX is "recognised" by HM Gov/HMRC.

My ISA is with iWeb who have also told me explicitly by phone that de-listing will NOT prevent me continuing to hold POLY stock in my ISA account until transferred out on my instructions- iWeb say they are sending out guidance this week- we shall see!

BSR - Well if you won't read what I write, how do you know its rubbish?

I have in fact read and I think understood the 10 May A and I Briefing, which I quoted back in part to Poly IR and asked why some aspects were not working smoothly, which they are not. I have had a useful frank and informative exchangef emails with Evgeny Monakhov, with whom I have communicated several times in the past. He doesn't seem to think I am talking rubbish. In fact he agrees with me, but says that they have tried everything, including financial incentives, to get a mainstream broker on board without success. I am not going to disclose anything further for it to be pored over and rubbished, save for one response he makes to my question: "do you think that there may be a simpler solution for us- are there any discussions still ongoing?" His reply "We’ve sort of arrived at the end of the road in looking for simpler and more elegant solutions…"

Hi Onbeyondzebra. Thanks for that. Yes, inability to obtain a paper certificate puts the kybosh on Tabys, which is a route I was considering, and now iWeb will provide the paper, I may well go for that. I was not trying to diss this option, simply trying to point out to Poly IR "in the round" that the recommended routes for (UK) PI's in the 10 May Briefing were not going smoothly. As I said, I have downloaded the Tabys app myself.

All is sweetnes and light now I trust -thanks for your detailed explanation which I agree with.

What I am interested in NOW though is that since iWeb have said that my ISA shares will sit in limbo in my ISA even after de-listing , what is the reality of that I wonder? Dividends? - if IWeb/Halifax are the registered shareholder and a divi is paid, then should my percentage of the "pool" not be allocated to my account? And the ISA aspect?- shares held by a registered ISA manager and listed on a recognised foreign exchange=no problem (apart from not being able to trade them)? And for the future- will a relisting on LSE work. Presumably a Corporate Action and share split (of which I know and understand virtually zilch). But if there is an option to swap one Poly share for say one PolyK plus one PolyR, then I imagine I could opt for the PolyK and sell off the Poly R if iWeb will not hold that stock? Its all very interesting albeit headache making.

After I was told that paper withdrawal certificates should generally be available I have contacted my brokers again about this. I apologise that I wrogly suggested previously that paper stock withdrawal certificates would be hard to obtain. I have been told the following:

Jarvis X-O will provide certificates at a cost of £18

iWeb will now provide certificates waiving their usual £25 fee in respect of POLY stock(as of an iWeb/Halifax directive this morning.

I was also told by the iWeb rep. that an option was indeed to leave the shares in my iWeb ISA- they would not be "liquidated" by iWeb unless and until a future decision to do so was made, and that in that event I would be able to apply for a paper ownership/withdrawal certificate as an alternative. I did reconfirm this info with him several times andam clear that this is the current position.

Do you know, onbeyondzebra, I was thinking of posting a detailed rebuttal, but frankly......If you believe that there is a " lot of misinformation" in my post, then perhaps you would want to explain to others what it is, if ithat is so concerning to you. I note one ommission, ie that FF KZ will, along with many other Kaz brokers, offer brokerage to UK residents. As regards certificates, I don't accept what you say because I certainly can't get iWeb to agree to provide one.

Anyway, I appreciate your detailed and informative posts generally, but on this occasion have to award Nul Points- I thought the concensus was that PI's on here were trying to help each other see a solution to all this, not to carp on or accuse people of " misinforming" .