Member Info for operastar

Z Cars. What makes you think that " we will know funds are available to proceed". Do you mean to build the DMG or just to get planning permission? We need both to proceed.

Having read the UKWIN page I can understand your concern Piltik . They say "In addition to greenhouse gas emissions that exacerbate climate change, incinerators (including gasification and pyrolysis plants) emit many toxins and pollutants, giving rise to public health concerns." I Hope David Ryan can refute that claim in the case of the DMG. As far as I know ,no figures have been given for gas emissions to the air from using all the syngas for electric generation which I think would be the greatest emitter. They just say all potential pollutants go into the vitrified solid **** which is non toxic. The emissions from the gas engine generators should be mainly CO2 but could have others.

This is always a useful post to keep us up to date on what is going on world wide. I guess the head line should have read " Over a BILLION $" ( using the accepted US definition now used by UK as well of 1,000,000,000) . I am also rather underwhelmed when I read that CHINA with a population of 1.42 BILLION (2018) is only hoping to produce 1 MILLION FCEVs by 2030. Is this another miss reporting? I calculate this is aprox. 0.07 % of the population.

Sorry . Just for clarity ,I should have said " talking about a CONVENTIONAL train service between Chester and LIVERPOOL.

Kenny100. The most exciting news from my viewpoint is that Alstrom's base is in Widnes in my own home area. ALSO I read an article last year that stated the first "test" service using the train would be on the Chester to Manchester line. This could be delayed by upgrade work needed on a section of the line. This section just happens to be very close to PHE's base in Thornton park ! I have found out that this work has been done but cant find any more news about the service. The news that I found saying the line work was done was talking about service between Chester and LIVERPOOL so I am still trying to find out about the hydrogen train service.

Telephoneman. Do you or anyone else know what the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO) is? The word "obligation" makes me think it might be some kind of levy to fund research.

Actualy Sharesport , looking back, I see that I was NOT making a statement about the revenue I was asking a QUESTION ,so you are being unfair. I will not be coming back on this board anyway until I see some hard news hopefully next year.

Sorry to Sharesport also. Yes, the remark was rash and not based on full understanding but was not intended with malice. I repeat I am 100% behind PHE and want them to succeed. I was just expressing my concern and wanting reassurance which I now have. I hope that concludes my grilling. I don't have time for all the research you obviously do.

Thanks very much Telephoneman for your very full explanation of the agreement and split of revenue. That is certainly much better and more flexible than I thought. There was a paragraph in that announcement that talked about "right of first refusal" I did not understand what that meant but maybe refers to the way revenue could be split. I am sorry for the off the cuff use of the term "pocketing the money" .Having read the statement from PHE of January 2017 when the agreement was set up I see that PHE are employing W2T as a consultant and the present agreement finishes at the end of this year. hence the speculation about it continuing. I think it would seem sensible to negotiate at least another years association to get the first unit running since PHE have stated it should be built by the end of next year. .

From all the talk about this I am still not clear about the agreement. Is it just a useful liason so W2T find new customers for PHE ( and pocket the main revenue and give PHE 20%) or can PHE find it's own customers ( maybe after first or second units manufactured and working ) . The talk of "re-negotiating (when the present "Contract" runs out?) seems to imply the latter.

Thanks Telephoneman ,Sharesport for your feedback . I have been corresponding with KA in the past before the Open day in Thornton Park which I could not go to because of being under treatment for cancer. I hoped I would be able to go at a later time which he said might be possible but that did not materialise. I have listened and read reports from KA on VOX but do not remember the subject of financing the first commercial unit. I admit I was only vaguely aware of the connection between PHE and W2T until the announcement from W2T rather than PHE of the present arrangement. I have asked these questions first here in the hope of getting a better idea of what is going on from people who are more in the know. Surely that is the point of this BB. Anyway I will try and get answers direct from KA or David Ryan. It is clear that most people are happy with this financing arrangement and IF PHE can use one (or more) of the units for more research (and correction of faults) ,so am I . THAT is my definition of a prototype. I note that others are also asking about the exact nature of the agreement between PHE and W2T.

Piltick. From your post "How exclusive is the W2T agreement" I assume you do think that PHE will have freedom to make it's own deals in the future. If this is the case, then I think that answers my two main concerns. i.e. that PHE can do further research and development and can make it's own deals and reap the full rewards in the future.

Thanks Piltick.
I missed that bit somehow.

"PHE has identified seven sites, including one at Ellesmere Port in Cheshire, where application-specific engineering activities are taking place, with each site comprising different specific waste streams that will be processed by a DMG® technology ‘research demonstrator’"
. The phrase Research Demonstrator does seem to answer my concern for further research and development.

Woops,
Sorry . Forgot to put in the full title

Hi Sharesport. Yes , all that I have posted on this topic IS my personal opinion. My motivation for posting is my concern about what I THINK is a change of plan from (a) PHE financing and building the first commercial DMG to (b) (I assume) set up by W2T to sell even the first unit from design under this insurance "wrap" scheme. This is presumably provided to encourage customers to take the plunge and buy it on the strength of the design being certified by DNV GL. In fact you state that " PHE aren't classing the first commercial unit as a prototype", so I am assuming this IS a fact, i.e., the first unit will not be owned by PHE. Will it however by available to them for research and development (particularly to produce hydrogen and continue to research different feed stocks)? . The nearest statement I can find regarding how the first DMG will be built is from the RESOURCE article. Paul Ryan says "and we should achieve full certification against the DNV GL Technology Qualification process at our first site”. Does anyone yet know where this is? I assume it will not be far from Thornton Park. I also wait with bated breath for the first brave customer to order under this scheme. My belief is that it will be difficult to get this first customer without a WORKING PROTOTYPE for them to see which proves beyond doubt that the machine does work. I will be very happy to be proved wrong as I am 100% behind the technology and desperately want it to succeed for the environmental and economic benefits already mentioned so often here and also because it is being developed in my home area of Cheshire. I AM an investor and want it to succeed for that reason as well!

Yes Audible> I understand that the first customers for the DMG WILL probably only be for electricity gen. That has been said all along. The point I was making is that the first unit should be a prototype under the control of PHE for further research as with the original so that the full potential of the tech can be realised as soon as possible. For that I think grant funding is needed. You say " PHE will be grant aided" . I haven't seen any news of that. Do you have some? If so that IS good news.

Hi Piltick: If a share issue is the only way to finance the first (COMERCIAL PROTOTYPE) DMG then I would agree with you. It is just a pity that PHE have not been more active in seeking grant finance in the past to drive this forward. There is some available from local sources I believe, but PHE have not wanted to apply, due to aversion to red tape. I think that was a mistake. It does seem as if it is up to W2T to do this, hence the present development strategy. I don't know if PHE may be able to go it alone in the future and become a full manufacturing company supported by their own patents. It seems unlikely now they are so firmly tied to W2T. I thought PHE already have been using a syngas powered generator which is linked to the local on site grid . using the present 3 tonne EXPERIMENTAL PROTOTYPE DMG.
Sorry to 98889 that I did not make clear that I regard the First 25 tonne COMERCIAL DMG as a prototype as well as the present small experimental one now operating at Thornton Science Park Cheshire. I think customers need to see this in operation with some hours of use under its belt before they will buy. All the figures for production of gas etc are based on computer modelling so far.

I have found Telephoneman's post regarding this saying the first unit (prototype?) "power generation only" (i.e. without the necessary add on unit to separate the hydrogen) would be £5m. I think the PROTOTYPE unit should be able to be upgraded quickly to include hydrogen separation and be under PHE control.

Newboy :Sadly I have to agree that PHE seem to have hit a hiatus (spelling?) with regard to the first 25 tonne DMG. It does seem unrealistic to expect a customer to buy the first unit without being able to see a working prototype. My understanding was that this WOULD be built by PHE by the end of next year. (what was the price tag? £4 m I think). The roll out and financing now seem to be in the hands of W2T using " insurance wraps" whatever that is, with PHE relegated to a technical development role and only receiving a measly 20% licence fee. I accept that this may be the only way to get the system up and running quick enough, but it is a sad loss of independence and future revenue for PHE. This is the usual dilemma for most small tech start up companies. I hope W2T will raise some cash for the prototype FIRST.

Telephoneman. Still hoping you will reply to this under your own title of Cost. The original question was: Is there any government legislation/ licence involved in a private wire connection? Could you also say if your figure of £60/ MWh was for generation using an IC gas gen set as originally envisaged by PHE, or via an AFC fuel cell which W2T seems to be pushing as they have an agreement with AFC not involving PHE.

Bumble B. Thanks for reply. Maybe the figure of £60 / MWh quoted by Telephone man WAS for electricity generated using the AFC fuel cell which W2T has bought under it's agreement with AFC. This would be using only hydrogen since that is how a fuel cell works. Were the deals you quote that didn't succeed, arranged by AFC direct with power companies or via W2T under their agreement? I will try to get a reply from Telephoneman