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#50 Comments on oil spill. Pt.1

Journalist 1 - They are talking about the expected threats to the environment in Dedoplistskaro district. Oil is spilled from a boring well. As a result, the environment is polluted. The scale of the damage is large and it reaches Vashlovani reserve. Traces of pollution can be clearly seen in the video footage taken on the spot. Environmentalists are calling for an immediate response, but before appropriate action can be taken, there is now a dispute over whether the Nazarlebi # 2 well belongs to Frontera or to the State Oil and Gas Agency. Amid conflicting statements, company and agency officials have blamed each other for the oil spill. After an international arbitration dispute, the American oil company Frontera, which entered Georgia in 1997, returned 99% of the oil exploration territory in Kakheti to the state.

Journalist 2 - In Kakheti, in particular, in Dedoplistskaro municipality, oil has been spilling from the 2nd well of Nazarlebi for several months. All work on the spot is suspended. There are black puddles in the area. In some places the oil from the well has formed a bed and flows like a river in a radius of several hundred meters. Former member of parliament Beka Natsvlishvili spread information about the oil-flooded areas yesterday and noted that the situation is similar in other wells. And the people who were employed at the Nazarlebi 2nd well say that if it is not conserved in time and the oil spill is not stopped, it could have a disastrous result.

Former employee of FRR - During the summer, someone may throw a lighter or a cigarette and start a fire, which may reach Dedoplistskaro and burn the Vashlovani National Reserve completely with its flora and fauna.

Beka Natsvlishvili (Former member of parliament of Georgia, GD party) - oil is already rising under pressure because no one is in control of the situation. Oil extraction does not take place there. It can be said that about 700 liters are spilled at intervals, which is a lot because there are lakes. It flows further down the slope and goes to the Vashlovani Nature Reserve, which is the most alarming. In addition, where there is arable land, it passes in the middle of them and is collected there. There is no greater catastrophe and ecocide than this.

J2 - Who owns the boring well? Frontera or the Oil and Gas Corporation? We addressed this question to both the state and a private company. However, we did not hear anything other than mutual accusations. Frontera says that after an arbitration dispute lost last year, when 99% of the state's land was reclaimed, a second well from Nazareth was also hit in the area, so they were not allowed to continue operating. Therefore, the American company blames the state for the oil spill.

Translation 49 - Decision in the GC v FRGC case

Pt.1

Tbilisi City Court

D e c i s i o n on behalf of Georgia

31.03.2021 Tbilisi

Introductory part

Board of Civil Cases Judge – Archil Kochlamazashvili, Session Secretary – Tamar Tsikarishvili

Plaintiff – LTD “Green Capital”, Representative – Elene Kishmaria, Giorgi Kishmaria

Defendant - Frontera Resources Georgia Corporation CR-72227/USA/, Branch of Frontera Resources Georgia Corporation in Georgia, Representative – Zaza Mamulaishvili

Subject of dispute - Imposition of money, fulfillment of obligations under the contract, recognition as a party to the contract, recognition as a shareholder

Case hearing form - oral hearing

Resolution Part:
The court was guided by Articles 8, 53, 243-244-3, 248-249, 2591, 364, 369 of the Civil Procedure Code of Georgia and

Decided:
1. To uphold Green Capital's claim

2. To order Frontera Resources Georgia Corporation to pay the equivalent of USD 5,800,000 (five million eight hundred thousand) in GEL in favor of the plaintiff Green Capital Ltd.

3. To grant "Green Capital" Ltd the exclusive rights on Dedoplistskaro, Signagi, Sagarejo, Gurjaani, Marneuli and Gardabani territory (Geological allotment area on the plan – 5060 (5 Thousand Sixty) sq. m.) to operate on production of oil and gas granted to "Frontera Resources Georgia Corporation" from 27 August, 1997 to 27 August, 2022, by an agreement on the share distribution of products and the study of a processing plant.

4. “Green Capital” Ltd. shall be recognized and registered as a party of "Agreement on the Distribution of Products and the Study of the Processing Plant", dated June 24, 1997.

5. To register “Green Capital” Ltd. (ID 402052372) as a 50% stakeholder of “Frontera Eastern Georgia” Ltd (ID 204905674) instead of “Frontera Resources Georgia Corporation”

6. To return the state fee of 5000 GEL paid through JSC "TBC Bank" by "Green Capital" on 04.03.2021. and also return the state fee of 100 GEL paid through with the same bank by Elene Kishmaria on 17.03.2021.

7. The decision can be appealed to the Tbilisi Chamber of Appeals within 14 days after the submission of the reasoned decision in compliance with the rules provided in paragraph 8 of the Resolution, through the Civil Cases Board of the Tbilisi City Court.

8. The party wishing to appeal the decision, if he / she is present at the announcement of the decision or knows the date of the announcement of the decision, is obliged to appear in the Tbilisi City Court and receive a copy of the decision no earlier than 20 and no later than 30 days after the announcement of the resolution. Otherwise, the appeal period will start on the 30th day after the announcement of the decision. Extension and restoration of this period is not allowed.

Judge /signed and sealed/ Archil Kochlamazashvili

#48

Pt.4

ZM - In fact that is why Europe and America are involved here today in our political crisis. Yes sir. I will specify the moment I was talking about. It was a quote from Kent. He said, "The Georgian Dream government has announced that it will apply for EU membership in 2024. They still want to join NATO, so I think it is clear that it is not only the choice of at least ¾ of Georgians, it is the constant path of the Georgian Dream governments, in which both formally the party chairman and informally the party founder is Bidzina Ivanishvili.” Further he continues this way - "I think when we listen to Georgians, including the current Prime Minister of Georgia, who was formerly the Minister of Defense and with whom we worked closely, this commitment to Georgia's path and its strategic goal is clear. I think this hearing is about how committed Georgia is to values. NATO is not just a military alliance. It is a community of countries that share values. In my opinion, this is the final test for Georgia.” This is what a representative of the State Department spoke about.

ZM - And here we must remember that these messages come from the people and the government of the country where such a crisis occurs several times a year. This is called closing the government when the government has no funding. This is a situation where Republicans and Democrats are entering a deadlock in negotiations, but no matter how fierce this controversy is, they still find a way out, find points of contact that they can agree on, and keep the country moving.

J1 - Therefore, they cant imagine why we can't agree with each other.

ZM - Of course. They cant imagine talking with each other without the interference of US government.

J1 - Yes sir. On the issue of aid, as we have already said, Jim Risch put forward the preconditions for US aid to Georgia. We remember in the spring of last year at this time there was such a proposal in the bill of the House Appropriations Committee, there was talk of some part, but it did not work out. However, Risch recalled that the EU had recently set the preconditions for providing financial assistance to Georgia. Do you think can this issue be put on the agenda?

ZM - As we have seen, the agenda has already active. Ahead was a bill that would have frozen 15% of aid if the country did not meet certain conditions, but then that 15% estimated freeze was no longer in the law, but the very fact that a political statement was made in Congress was already an important message to Georgia. As Senator Rish said yesterday, they seem to think that such a mechanism should be reversed in order to have more influence over the Georgian government.

J1 - The answer was interesting about that. This is where State Department spokesman McDonald said: "We can't want the reforms we talked about more than we want them to."

#48

Pt.3

ZM - So it is, and at least that is the perception that Washington has today. And they have this perception in the State Department and in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. This is practically a group of people who always stand by Georgia and they have to decide what kind of help the country will receive from the government of the United States in the future. By the way, everyone says that we should not want more democratic and economic development of the country than Georgians. If there is no democratic development, if equal conditions are not created for American business, no investment is made, the economy does not stand on its feet, then we will not be able to escape the influence of Russia.

J1 - We know that the formation of the new Biden administration is coming to an end, the team working on Georgia, and we also know that the Senate will work with the White House and the administration on Georgia case. How do you imagine, what resolution can the senate take towards Georgia and how can be the further aid linked to this matter?

ZM - In my opinion, if there is a resolution or any action to be taken by the Senate, of course the government will be responsible for all the events taking place in the country, and there will be some active action with them, but they will also work very actively with the opposition. So I do not think that this effort should be directed only at the government unilaterally. Probably enough efforts will be made for the opposition to be able to reach an agreement on both sides. Because it can not go on like this, and the US State Department and the State Department see it very well. There were many things which were untold at the meeting, such as the report of the US Director of National Intelligence, which was published 2 weeks ago, which clearly shows what Russia is doing in the United States, not taking into account the region, what Iran is doing on US soil and how it interferes in elections. Therefore, the US will be forced to put more effort and pressure on both the government and the opposition.

J1 - The pressure on the opposition to enter the parliament? Will be the West be satisfied if the opposition enters the parliament?

ZM - I would not define it this way. The opposition must determine what tactics and strategy it will choose, but the pressure will be on the country to avoid the destabilization that Russia is promoting today. Believe me, Russia is doing a lot more work in different directions today to aggravate and make the situation in Georgia more explosive. So they will try not to bring the country to the point where unrest or destabilization will start.

#48

Pt.2

J1 - By the way I must say about Mr. Kent by all means. It was a little heartbreaking when he was talking about barbed wire in our conflict region. He said that one could see the Russian soldier in those places. I also thought at that moment that I do not remember the Georgian Dream members talking about these barbed wire in our parliament. I do not know if I missed something. I remember the opposition raising these issues in the previous parliament, but I do not remember much about this issue from the representatives of our government. Of course, there was absolute goodwill, fanfare towards Georgia, but Mr. Rish raised the issue there and then spread the topic that there can be no help if a number of reforms are not carried out, there will be no healthy democracy, and so on. How do you think this process will develop? Yes, the hearing ended yesterday, they talked about the crisis and expressed their desire to resolve it, but now we are talking about adopting a resolution. How do you see the continuation of yesterday's story?

ZM - You mentioned the barbed wire, and the author of these barbed wire is the Kremlin and the current Russian government. By the way, during these hearings, Russia was heard from many different participants, practically everyone mentioned Russia several times. And, we must look at the big picture and the context in which Georgia is mentioned. This is very important because its players - Russia, Iran and Turkey, who are trying to move their agenda forward with Georgia and the region, are very active. We should not forget that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, it happened a few months ago, when Russia still has its troops in all the republics of the Caucasus - in Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia. Therefore, the geopolitical situation has changed and it has not changed in favor of Europe and the US. For Georgia, whose aspiration is to become a member of the European Union and NATO, to be in a strategic relationship with the United States, this is a very bad and negative context.

J1 - However, it was also said that if it continues like this, you will not become a member of NATO. The Georgian government says it wants a Euro-Atlantic course but that is still a abstract issue. Such kind of thing was said at the hearings - You have to follow the values that these countries follow, otherwise you will not be a member of NATO and the European Union.

Translation #48 Interview with ZM, 1/4

Pt.1

J1 - Our guest is Zaza Mamulaishvili, President of Frontera Resources. Thank you, Mr. Zaza for participating in the show. Let’s summarize and analyze yesterday’s Senate committee hearing. Give us your initial assessment and then we will go into the depths.

ZM - Thank you very much. First of all, what became obvious to everyone was what USA, particularly Washington, knows very well and accurately about the ongoing processes in Georgia. And these Senate hearings in the Foreign Affairs Committee were another good example of how everyone saw how important Georgia is to Washington, what exactly they are informed about, and how exactly they define the problem that the country is facing right now. By the way, Senator Shaheen stated very clearly and well that when the leader of the political party is in prison in this case only Russia rejoices, when the seats of the parliamentary opposition are empty, only Russia rejoices.

J1 - By the way, let’s move on to the interpretations now. Here, this phrase was followed by interpretations. The Dream interpreted it as the opposition was harassed, the second thought was that the opposition should enter the parliament. Did this mean directly that the opposition should just enter parliament? Did that mean that if the opposition is not in parliament it is just bad for this country? How did you understand that?

ZM - Because there was no different interpretation it was very clearly defined that despite the fact that these opposition seats are empty, the political leader is in prison (However, it was emphasized that this political leader has broken the law and is therefore in prison) ...

J1 - I was listening to very restrained and objective statements from the beginning to the end ...

ZM - Yes, indeed ... and they emphasized that the main thing is that no matter which angle you are looking from, the government should still take the first step and said very specifically that it is not only the job of the government to work for democracy and work for the development of democracy, but also the work of the opposition. So both the government and the opposition must work together.

J1 - In America, this culture has been in place for centuries, and they make decisions together. For example, Jin Shaheen and Jim Rish are members of different parties but work together on strategic issues. They have an idea, of course, but it may be a little difficult to accept that the government is somewhere else and the opposition is totally different.

ZM - You mentioned a very interesting thing and there was 1 important detail when Mr. Kent, the Deputy Secretary of State, said that both sides turn to us to meet and talk to each other. This means that we have tough situation in the country because the government and opposition can`t or don’t want to talk to each other unless this happens with the help of USA. This was said by Mr. Kent duting the speech.

#47 Pt.5

Pt.5 (and final part)

J1 - the way, it's good that you started talking on this topic, Zaza. The money collected from the sale of oil was invested in agriculture and construction. I'm amazed. Once I watched documentary film on Youtube about the Chronicle of death of Kutaisi automobile factory. They said that because of the fact that Stalin was Georgian, they build these factories. That`s nonsense. Thousand of people were employed in 1948-1949 years, in order to cultivate the tea in large amounts. So, in order to organize the transportation of the the citruses it was needed to build automobile factory. Stalin was very clever. Let`s take for instance the factory in Ganja, a branch of a Belarusian factory. It assembles the tractors at the site but it`s spare part are imported. Why? A lot of money has been invested in agriculture and equipment is needed as well. If the Azerbaijanians think this way, why cant we also help our country? Azerbaijan produces condensed milk. Their country is a semi-desert. Their land is being irrigated, artesian wells have been dug up all over Azerbaijan. The man patronizes the country. We dont not take care of ourselves. Investment is required. He invested that oil money in agriculture, in construction - he built many factories. We don’t do that for our country.

ZM - We do not care and moreover - we are moving towards self-destruction. The fact is that no one will need this oil for the next 20-30 years. The whole world is switched to alternative energy. Mankind has no other choice. If the temperature does not drop, otherwise the geopolitics will change a lot and a big fuss will start. So that the window is left for 20-30 years on oil, and 40-50 years on natural gas.

J1 - Actually, we were told the same during my student period. There are more discoveries.

ZM - We still have the opportunity to bring income from this wealth to the people of Georgia and why should not we do that? We have been in self-destruction mode for a long time and that reminds me of 1 good example. At the beginning of the 20th century, in the 20s and 30s, almost simultaneously, Argentina and Japan decided to start an automobile industry. This is a genius example because at that time Japan did not even produce its own steel, had nothing, and created Toyota. The Americans helped Argentina with their best specialists and today Toyota is a company with about 200 billion, with the largest sales, while Argentina still does not have its own flagship car company. And what`s the difference? Japan today is the 3rd economy, while Argentina is facing the defaults. Argentina reminds me of Georgia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfIqDK6mr6M

#47 Pt.3

ZM - Of course. They should happily cross the border. Come here to the doctor. In the modern world, let’s take Britain, or the United States, people travel to work by train and sit on the train for 1 hour, 1.5 hours 1 way. So, in our case, to cross the border and go to work from Gali or Ochamchire is not the problem. But when your mind is occupied with corruption and various machinations, you have no time for anything else and to see widely what you can do to attract these people. It has to happen and it will happen soon. I mostly meet Abkhazians abroad, our compatriots and it is an amazing story. It is amazing how they feel about Georgians, Georgia and their homeland, but we must also take into account that they often do not say it out loud. They are afraid. It is part of politics and corruction. And, local clans use it the way they want to make their money.

J1 - The same situation is here. The poor are impoverished even more.

ZM - It is the same there and at this time you can not name a field in the country where Georgia did not have very clear minds, good experience and great potential.

J1 - Nadiradze was the creator of ballistic missiles. I do not know if you know, the US-Soviet negotiations in Geneva, he sat as a leading expert and amazed the Americans with his deep knowledge.

ZM - If we recalled about potential, I want to talk about Abkhazia. There is a huge supply of oil and gas in the waters of Abkhazia, in the territorial waters of Georgia.

J1 - Is this true? I heard that a pro-Russian subsidiary of Gazprom is doing the extraction. By the way, it is interesting to talk about this. I remember that the prime minister of Russia was visiting us, during Shevardnadze period, I think it was 1976, and he said that there is gas in Georgia. Then Shevardnadze said that we were looking for it as well. I also know there is some shelf near Ochamchire.

ZM - Yes. A huge supply of oil and gas is exactly in Ochamchire. Unfortunately it is illegally operated by Rosneft who does not recognize the Georgian jurisdiction in these waters. As for our part the government intends to sign an agreement with an Austrian company.

J1 - They say it is Austrian and in fact it is Russian.

#47 Pt.2

J1 (contd) By the way, I may b subjective but Scythians had not wiped out the Kingdom of Colchis, we would not have been in such passive situation. In addition to this, the Russians have cut our wings. We are facing too many challenges nowadays. Based on what resources and intellectual potential we have, we live quite poorly. How do you imagine this will change?

ZM -Thank you very much. I am very glad to have the opportunity to talk to you. Of course, it is Georgia and Abkhazia is our part. It's an incurable pain, but we must have the courage to admit that it's because of us that it's so. You mentioned Israel and its Prime Minister. The Prime Minister of Israel called Mr. Burla 17 times. Burla is the director of Astrazeneka. 17 times and on all 17 of these calls Israeli Minister of Health was also presented. In the result, they were the first to vaccinate their citizens in large numbers. This is very interesting statistics. After Israeli tehre were USA, Saudi Arabia and other countries who have more money than they have. But looks like the money is not the issue in this case. You need to have more than just money. When you are struggling, you have problem in economy, thousands of children are starving, you need to do something to make things right and save the country. People have nowhere to look for food and jobs and have no income. In such conditions, why should our compatriot living in Abkhazia want to come and join us? But if all this changes, of course, reunification will not take long. A wonderful example of this is Germany. Therefore, everything depends on us.

J1 - Zaza, let me tell you this. It is good that you recalled the example of Germany. I remember very well that evening when it suddenly opened. People were fleeing from East Berlin. I recalled the case when Kobakhidze was talking about Nika Melia. He was acusing him of bankruption of Kartu Bank. This is a lie becasse by that time Nika Melia was the director of Enforcement Bureau and it was his direct responsibilities. Do you know why I am telling you this? Nika Melia's father, I know, opened the clinic and made a humanitarian gesture to treat patients from Abkhazia on the spot. The doctors do not go there for work and they are right. This is job should be done by the country. Let us speak the truth. Healthcare is deformed and has been so for 20 years. I do not know, you probably know, the average salary in hospitals is 600-700 GEL. We don’t have enough qualified doctors. Because we talk about Abkhazia, if there is emergency situation, we take the doctors from Tbilisi. There are not so many Georgians and Abkhazians living in Gali. Only those people who don’t have enough money come here. Yes, we say that it costs us 5 million to treat the patients from Abkhazia but we don’t have enough qualified doctors to provide the services. We cant operate like this. It`s a serious problem. We should fascinate Abkhazians.

Translation 47 - Interview with ZM and the same host / show as #46 Pt.1

J1 - Frontera's representation in Georgia covers a very long and multi-year period. Their activities and goal were to find, process and sell oil and gas. Anyway, you will probably remember that Mr. Zaza was our guest 1-2 years ago. The only thing I remembered, Mr. Zaza, is that you have an amazing knowledge of geopolitics, the Georgian economy, and most importantly, you have seen the world through the Georgian eye. Finding our place is key in this world. This is the most important thing today: who we are and what we should be like. Thanks for visiting. One thing I want to ask you. I was in the bank now, I was standing in line and I saw by chance this very good illustrated book, it is a masterpiece, many and many pictures are given here. As you probably know, today is March 16, if you remember, a very grand attack was carried out by the North Caucasus separatists and about 100 local Georgians were defending the area. About 100 Georgians and 500 to 600 North Caucasians were killed. It was a truly glorious battle. This was now celebrated on Heroes' Square. The symbol of our attitude and our perseverance is the battle of March. These morons thought that they could take Sokhumi, but they could not take it. Abkhazia is really ours, Zaza. Nobody can take it away from us. The genetic code lies in the locals and in all Georgians that what is ours should be ours. We need to be careful and take care of it. We have useless government. It was piece of cake handling the COVID-19. Here, the Prime Minister took every effort to find the vaccine for his country. By December 25, they have vaccinated more than 1 million citizens. Our government is useless. They could have used the resources of Frontera as well. We have lost many opportunities. We are the same generation, Mr. Zaza, and I remember that there were talks in 1988-1989 that Switzerland will be like Georgia, if they are independent. By the way, this was written by foreigners. We are not moving forward at all. You are the director of an American firm and you know very well the American rules of American business and the local bureaucracy. We need to help the country and talk about these issues. There are no country-loving people in power. Random types sit in different rings in power. Nepotism has divided the country. It should not be like this. It seems that we are very educated nation, because we have up to 450 000 citizens with higher education. This is huge number. Poland would be really jealous. In Poland, higher education was generally discouraged. We have so many educated and professional people and there is stagnation, Zaza. I am glad that you are my guest. I am sorry, I have been talking for 7 minutes. It`s terrifying and stunning what is written here. This country is ours.I was in tears when I saw Likhni Church. I was there in 1989, there were Georgian texts all over the place. This is part of Georgian civilization.

#46 Pt.6

J1 - I do not know what you mean by smart behavior. Few people think sensibly and rationally, but government policy should be like that. I am glad that you talked about these issues. Let`s think about this, people. A truly strategic ally for us is America. A very large resource is spent from them with us. I think it is about 4 to 8 billion and let's spend these funds wisely and make such breakthroughs in the economy that will employ people and most importantly give us income. You were right then. The whole of Japan was then living through Toyota. 7 or 8 million have been sold since the late 70s. This is a colossal number. There should be some brands from Georgia, which can be exported. We need to think about this as well. Tourism is very interesting for us. If we invest in Tourism and we feed them with our own products, it will be a great income for us. We are not even 4 million and if we serve 9-10 million, this can be great profit for us.

ZM - But in order to make these things happen, we need our government to be involved in this process. At first I thought that this was government`s prerogative, then I thougth about opposition in the same way, but finally I came to the opinion that the people should force state and opposition to make everything happen.

J1 - Zaza, this reminded me Bismark. He gave huge salaries to the teachers who raised the great generations for their country. Perhaps this is the thing which should be done by the government. A great deal of funding should be invested in education. Educated people will outweigh these bureaucrats and nepotists. I am really glad that you are our guest but unfortunately we exceeded the time limit. We are geopolitically important country. Especially now, after the Karabakh and other events, we will become highly valued and America will definitely look after us if it has a guarantee that there will be democracy here and maybe this is how our future will go. Thanks for this conversation. I am really glad that you, the Americans, are optimistic about these events. You are literally already an American, right? The existence of your firm should also be an example of the persistent struggle. Thanks for this conversation. Zaza Mamulaishvili was our guest, director and head of Company "Frontera" in Georgia. We ran out of time and were not able to talk about this case. You started very good topic. How did Azerbaijan manage this? Ilham started and finished it. He purchased about 7 or 8 billions dollars worth weapons and finally managed dto retrieve more than half of the territories. Our country needs to be taken care of and we hope that someone will look after it. Good bye.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48SULxTEZo

#46 Pt.5

ZM - Mr. Davit, last week the United States Congress approved a $ 2 trillion aid package for Covid and is still preparing an aid package. There has never been invested such amount of capital in economy. No one should think that this will only have an impact in America. It will affect us directly. On the one hand, this is reflected in the fact that exchange rate will dramatically change. But against the background of all this, Georgia has the best chance, as a friend and partner of the United States, to attract a large part of this capital to Georgia. Attracting for us means that this money will create jobs here, employ people, raise wages and income, start a better life in the country. So what needs to be done as soon as possible is that part of the politicians should go and work on this issue with those people to ensure that they bring that money into the country. Otherwise, if we do not do it, other countries will do it. Now the prime minister of Israel does not have to bother himself to find the vaccine, but I am sure he will call the people there to earn capital and money. We must do the same.

J1 - Who will do that, Zaza? The government has been sitting and playing dominoes for 9 years. They need to think about it. You make hints and say that this is what you should do in energy sector and so on, but a plan must be made. Garibashvili says that he has 10 yeasr plan but God knows what happens in 10 years from now. Maybe if USA provides us with the funding, they might plan the whole thing for us.

ZM - In this regard, Mr. David, I think the country has no problem, because it has a lot of talented people, very energetic, hardworking. The projects are ready too, you just need to open the doors for these people to be able to attract these funds and then not interfere with doing this business. Besides one fundamental change should take place – this or next year China will overtake the United States and become the first economy in the world. America has never had such a traumatic period before and they suffer so much from it. It will greatly change world geopolitics. In addition, in order to stimulate their economy, they have lowered their interest rates so that they can do nothing to influence the process in any way. So that we can witness, this year and next, fundamental changes in geopolitics. Therefore, we must be very smart to get the maximum benefit for the country.

#46 Pt.4

ZM - And that's why the biggest threat we face is neither Russia nor climate change, it's us. By the way, we had a project in Moldova for years and there we encountered such a phenomenon that young people who had a little bit of some skills and education, the opportunity to leave the country, left the country. And if you need to invite a person to any specialty today, you will not be able to find qualified staff at work. When the talented man will go abroad, will settle somewhere else, will be offered a good job and paid well. He wont have an incentve to return to the home country. So what happens next? We will become an easy hatch not only for Russia and China, but also for others.

J1 - Zaza, I want to show it to the our spectators as well. Listen people, this is Pshapi, small village in Samegrelo. You will be heartbroken. Here if you have a look at the American villages, or even French of English, you will notice that we have advanced, especially in 1960-1970, when Georgia was at the level of Europe. Look here, there is no roads an something like that. Look at the fences. This was Samegrelo at the beginning of 20th century. This is really bad. Nowadays we have many graduated people but unfortunately they are leaving our country. We have problems with agronoms. Everything is problematic in villages. There is lack of development because we don’t have enough specialists.

ZM - is really good example. I would like to add that below Samegrelo – flourished county, with independent and fair court, which was in Guria, I mean in Republic of Guria (Laughing). Frankly, the whole reigon was full of achievements. Where this vanished? It is here, between us, but we need to put ourselves together.

J1 - As the matter of fact, you know what? Roosevelt did a huge favor for USA and he took the central union (Tsekavshiri) system. The same system worked in Germany. Even today, on the harvesting of the tangerines, there were mobilised the baskets in each villages with trucks. It was well organized. This must be done by the state and should help its farmers. Actually, the purchasing system was so well organized that the subsidy was given beforehand to the wheat harvesters. Something must be changed. There are no one in the government who is able to do this. Why there is the wheat problem? By June 15, Russia had raised its selling price of wheat by $ 50 and the price of bread has risen. Why cant we harvest 200-300 thousand tons for ourselves. I don’t know, Zaza, we have so many problems. Perhaps, you are right. If we have some kind of progress in energy sector, it might motivate other sectors as well.

#46 Pt.3

J1 - We have very good generation, Zaza. Let`s send the youth abroad for 3-4 years. They will gain the knowledge in certaing fields and return as the professionals. You are well informed in the field of energy. Nothing will be done in Georgia without energy. This gas is a very important strategic unit. If we have it then we should use it. You have to accelerate the work of your lobbyists from America. I know that your business is being harassed, but the promotion of development must be strengthened by an intergovernmental document. Why should we give the shelf to Russians.

ZM - We should not give it and at the same time it should be put in such a context that every citizen of this country has an income. By the way, we are working on one of the directions now and we will make the statement about it shortly - there is a project of renewable energy and its storage in Georgia, which will be connected with the sun and wind, and the country should move gradually. The next 10, 20, 30 years will be this process. This will improve both the climate and the environment. There will be a healthier generation when these horrible emissions are not inhaled. And especially in the modern world, it no longer matters where this plant will be located. Many do not have a strategic location like Georgia. We can use all these advantages. But what is needed for this? From what I see, no time should be spent on who will respond to his opponent with a more bitter expression. No time should be wasted on this. Time must be spent on who will come up with a better plan and implement it.

J1 - Zaza, I want to comment on this. When you have Partskhaladze and the kinds of him, they will definitely stop you. It does not matter what kind of plan you present them, they will always act in their own interests. This is not that easy. It`s not hard to make a project, it`s hard to keep it. This is theft. This is the same thing which they did to you.

ZM - This is it, Mr. Davit. We do not need to sit down and think of new formulas. Such formulas already exist in Europe and America. There is also historical experience. In the United States, for example, if you start a project and it is successful, the bank will look for you and offer you cheap financing. Cheap money exists in America. 0.25% is the annual interest rate set by the National Bank. In our country if I am not mistaken it is 6%, even more, it may be 7%. Now explain to me how a Georgian entrepreneur, a Georgian businessman can produce a competitive product when they have really cheap money and we have expensive.

J1 - They have a cool promotion in Turkey. The state helps agro-complexes producing tomatoes like this - they give loans for 30-40 years. Their tomatoes are cheaper compared to us. All our agricultural products come from Turkey. Because the state helps them. How should this be planned? There should probably be a national approach to help someone who is doing something.

#46 Pt.2

ZM - This person must be a participant in success. This is really a problem of the government. Unable to communicate with people. They do not talk to people. By the way, the same happens to the opposition. Nobody talks to people. The HPP is a good example. It turned out that they had no communication at all and there was a lot of misunderstanding. As for the contract it has been already signed and no one knew about it. The opposition has the same problem. They go to these meetings and nobody tells people anything.

J1 - I am sorry but I want to tell you my opinion about this. They really do buy the votes, right? Valeri told me very sensational news about this. The initiators of the construction of this Rioni Dam told the villagers that they must not allow the opposition to enter the village, otherwise they will not build anything. This is complete nonsence. Everything will be OK when you wont try to bribe the people and your and your people`s interests will be the same.

ZM - Yes, that's it, Mr. Davit, we should not be like them. Of course, everything has its rules and order. There is experience in the world on how to build such hydropower plants, where to build them, how to operate them. In addition to oil, gas and gold and silver, Georgia has a huge water resource. There is a lot of sun and a lot of windy places. All of this is practically before us and thus we can live luxuriously.

J1 - Zaza, it`s really good that you talked about this issue. This reminded me of the paint factory which was operating in Kutaisi. Even in capitalist countries, the Soviet Union sent Kutaisi paints. Everything was cheap in the Soviet Union and it was so effective that the effect of the paint could last over 20-25 years. This plant is not working nowadays. As for its main material which is used in the production of this paint, is right near Kutaisi. I don’t think that any one knows about this in the government. The paints which are now imported from Turkey is too far from the quality of the product which was produced in Kutaisi. Besided 20 litres of paint costs about 160-180 GEL. 20 litres is nothing. Any kind of building needs too much paint. It is very heartbreaking. How can it be not working? Kutaisi used to be center of Industry. Let`s build Kutaisi. The same goes to Zugdidi, Poti, Senaki where military bases were brought in 1942 and they were operating very effectively. Something needs to be changed. You are saying that we should introduce the bill about the fossils but no one will listen to you. We should consider which sphere is more important for us. It`s not that hard to do.

ZM - It`s not that hard to do when you have very qualified and intellectual country.

Translation 46, interview with ZM, 29m, 17/03

Pt.1

J1 - Those who live in Georgia should live by Georgian interests. If such a person appears, breakthroughs can be made. I liked your idea. In Kakheti you and your enterprise are blocked. Can you make any claim from Poti to Anaklia and you start extracting it? Will you be prevented from showing this initiative? There is no gas in western Georgia, SOCAR sells it expensively. When the gas crosses the Red Bridge our government adds too many taxes that in the result the gas becomes expensive. Georgia needs the gas. About 1.5 million people lives in Western Georgia and if you ask me the biggest factories should be built in Western Georgia.

ZM - Well, before I continue talking about this topic - I am very heartbroken and I want to tell the audience. I often hear from some politicians that there is no gas or oil in Georgia, which means that they don’t have insight in the topic and have no idea what they are talking about. When you hear such thing from anyone, just do not believe it. There is a lot of oil and gas in Georgia. There is a lot of gold and too much copper. But for this it is necessary for the state to approach the case rationally. By the way, Mr. Davit, we had a plan to go to Parliament with the initiative that the minerals belong to the person who owns the land. This practice is adapted in USA, not in Europe by the way. In USA, if the peron has a land and there is fossil beneath, it belongs to the land owner. Is someone has a land, he should also have an income from this land, right?

J1 - It`s very good that you mentioned this. At night, when I don’t sleep, I usually watch documentary movies. There was one documentary movie about Alaska. It appears that if someone owns the land he leases his lands to the miners and gets the percentage of extracted income. As for Georgia, what is beneath the land belongs to the state.

ZM - And it turns out that if the owner of this land will be interested in extracting that mineral (as happens in America), you will settle with this owner, and everyone will share the income earned. Here at least more or less bureaucracy prevails in this matter and it is not developed at the desired pace.

J1 - Let`s make a link between the topics. Look how weird it is, I may be exaggerating, but do you know what is capitalism? The land is your and that`s it. As soon as a person fenced a certain area and started sowing there, then the economy started to rise. That was very strange by the way, Mr. Zaza, I want to know your opinion about this. About 50,000 men came out in Kutaisi. There has never been such a large-scale action. They are landowners and they are being told that they have to leave the place once they will receive the compensation. This is nonsense. 5 million is not enough for the compensation.

#45 Pt.3
GU (contd) - With this company the government signs the contract and gives the exclusive rights of extraction of oil on the territory of Georgia. I want to remind the public that Shevardnadze did such a thing in his time and then it cost the budget a lot of effort and expense, and then we got the biggest reputation damage and it took years to make things right.

Pikria Chikhradze, Member of “Lelo for Georgia” - Periodically we notice that they are taking a big debts and financing the northern highways, but they don’t bother themselves about the projects which are connected to the West. We remember the famous phrase that Mamuka Khazaradze uttered after talking to Bidzina Ivanishvili, “what the Americans want in the Black Sea”. This is because of the fact that his allies think that the Black Sea and, consequently, Georgia and the Caucasus should be under Russian influence.

Tinatin Bokuchava, Member of “United National Movement” - Ivanishvili buried the Anaklia project, which was very important for our geopolitical goals if we are really looking towards the West. Now that Ivanishvili has ousted everyone, including Frontera, which operates in Georgia, buried the Anaklia project and instead of promoting pro-Western companies, he is introducing an Austrian company with direct ties to Russia, including the so-called Nordstream 2. And, of course, this kind of actions further reveal Bidzina Ivanishvili's real pro-Russian orientation.

J2 - Aside from the fact that OMV Petrom is a partner of Gazprom and one of the main investors in North Stream 2, the sponsor of Putin's biggest energy project, a scandal erupted around the company a year ago when Deutsche Welle reporters launched an investigation and they spoke directly that the head of the company Reiner Zele was involved in financial machinations with the Russian government and spent money often on Russian projects without notifying his company. Among them was talk about the funding of Zenit, Putin's favorite St. Petersburg football club, and that the money was being spent in the wrong direction. As the authors of this investigation, journalists from Deutsche Welle, wrote 1 year ago, the case was about another type of financial embezzlement, which is why the management of the Austrian company was very worried. So, this is the company to which the government grants the rights of operation in the Black Sea.

https://mtavari.tv/news/35636-otsnebas-sakartveloshi-gazpromis-partniori

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