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I am very disappointed in this choice of CEO. He has IMO a poor track record. He went to Lotus and said he must make the company solvent. He did this by selling Lotus to the Chinese owners of Volvo. But he clearly did not understand the Lotus ethic. And it is sadly an impossible one when people are a foot taller and want to drive SUVs. Chapmans idea was efficiency but also a certain prettiness. So that failed. Left after 2 years.
Then he went to Williams Development and achieved nothing. Left after 2 years.
Now ITM-power. Wants to find a niche for hydrogen-drive in transport. He wouldn't know that a superb firm, called Cummins, bought an ITM equivalent (Toronto based) to move into that sector. We have heard nothing over 6 years but Cummins will have a huge head start and they "know business". They are indeed trialing Alstom in Germany with H2 powered trains.
ITM.L should be marketing its electrolysers where they are needed - massive market if they would just try selling (Cooley met people and just hoped they would come back and buy). There is a superb new ITM sale in Australia where there is a strong push in the mining industry to use H2.
But we are doomed if this guy has his way. What good has ever done anyone but himself.
@BB Thanks, there. Yes, very familiar with this. Toneman's & Way's letters makes more sense. I find it hard to believe you get 50% energy recovery though it would be great if true. I don't think the F1 guys get that amount but am open to correction. No-one is talking about voltage which has to be "upped". (A Tesla has great acceleration but is using a thousand volts; a gun turret on a tank uses God Knows What volts to stay aligned). Its that conversion up to a target for a capacitor that I am asking about -
and if you have high voltage you need high insulation. As Way says, OK on a truck.
@BB Thanks, there. Yes, very familiar with this.
The new factory: its very important that they are moving away from 'hand made' electrolysers to use of some automation. That will benefit costs and competitiveness.
140 chairs in the offices sounds a rather a lot though :)
@Way2L8
Capacitors have always seemed "way to go". Its the voltage control, needing AC conversion, voltage standardisation, then back again - wasn't sure how this could be done in an effective way, ie compact, efficient. (its not v efficient, I know that).
Thanks Bilbo: I didn't know any of that. My knowledge of the Second Law of Thermodynamics got shaky with Clausius' analysis but I welcome your help with that. (What is U ?)
(BTW, I didn't mean burning H2, though I know you have earlier suggested just that. I meant using it as a reducing agent in the afterburner with a turbo charger. IC vehicles have so much invested in them that their cheapness will prevail in many places, if not england and Europe. Sad but probably true. Delphi make both electric vehicles and ic engines. They quote a typical ic engine at ~$300 and an electric set up at ~800. Also, you forget that there is suddenly a huge need for copper - more planet-plundering).
Make no mistake, I am fully behind the shift to H2.
@Way2L8 "Support electronics ensure voltage and current control"
Yes, thats where I wasn't sure. I don't think its all that efficient, based on F1 reports. Presumably thats why they used flywheels at first (~2010).
Obviously a capacitor will load up at the highest voltage but then not as the back-EMF falls (car slowing).
I don't quite understand energy recapture. Easy to say. Flywheels, sure: no probs (except freakish costly ?robust toroidal gears).
But otherwise, if you brake at (say) high speed, you will get a high voltage (back EMF) which can recharge a battery via a ...
But a moment later, the EMF has decreased, and so on. So can you use the same inverter as creates the high voltage for acceleration?
With tobacco reduction, most types of lung cancer have dramatically decreased. But adenocarcinoma, only occasionally associated with tobacco, has increased slightly (by occasionally, I mean cancer genes are switched on in only about 1/3 cases).
It seems to be more to do with modern living (eg "take-aways", wine??) than pollution (plenty pollution in some countries but not adenoca).
But as to fine particle pollution causing "bronchitis" - seems likely.
This is "trailing fine thoughts" but I wondered if it could be made mandatory to use fine filters to clean the huge amount of air pumped in by IC engines. Clean as you drive. (BB said there are such filters - well, lets use them! They could be large and flat)
IMO, the currently very much cheaper IC engines will last for along time - I'm guessing that as H2 becomes the norm to carry around, it will be used to chemically reduce completely the NO in the exhaust. And could particles be removed? Not sure but electrostatic techniques might work. I'm thinking of big trucks, not cars. (Toyota, vested interest in EV, point out that batteries hold no future for big trucks).
Completely onside regarding these posts (and I support Cooley's long collaborative approach to get the point across in Committee). However, my buts:
1) The electricity still has to be generated before all else.
2) Endless popn growth is unacceptable: as popn goes up, GDP goes but "societal needs" go up much faster (for example, UK GDP average growth is ~0.4 % pa over 50 years. But NHS costs growth is ~3% pa. Plot that out!).
3) Its said that Farage's new party will win if there's an election. Who knows what will follow.
@BB
1) Hydrogen is pumped through a series of condensers, throttle valves and compressors to bring it to its pressure of 13 bar, or roughly 13 bar. As you say. But..
While this occurs, the hydrogen is being cooled to keep it in its liquid form. While hydrogen must always be pressurized to maintain a liquid state, the process of cooling it down to keep it a liquid can differ. Small, specialized cooling units can be used, as can powerful heat exchangers that work alongside the pressurization process. Regardless, the hydrogen gas must be brought under at least 33 degrees Kelvin (hydrogen's critical temperature) to become a liquid.
2) Not trying to contradict, but I've come round to supporting current CEO after criticising him a lot in years gone by. Just my view. But I respect other PoV. ITM has to keep a voice on committees, and separately, avoiding trying to do too much.
@BB
1) IoW. Sad to say, it was a mess. It was mainly run by one guy who got insolvent, then involved in financial wrong-doing (Court case pending) - then died. ITM took the electrolyser back as you say (Didn't know there were two, but thats OK).
2) I've come across a big problem I hadn't thought of - anyone else? If already discussed & I've missed it, apologies.
With car refuelling, HRS, no probs. But with a bus fleet or a train, its quite different. You can make a HUGE simple tank and store masses of diesel. But you need similar volumes for H2 and even if it were liquid - which it is not - the whole works is a very different matter (pressure, compressor).
When bus fleets refuel, they load up huge amounts. But its worse with trains, isn't it?
Would Chesterfield Special Cylinders please help :)
At least the electric power is available.
Anyone seen this discussed usefully?
3) Share price. Sad. ITM has no debt (good!). If it got all its £33M that it foresees, divided by its ~330M shares, we have 10p sales per share. A price/sales ratio of 2 is considered "good" and that is what we have. (current price ~20p divide by 10). If we try Price/Earnings (which I have to imagine so is pretty useless here) we might keep 15% of the Sales, and allow a very generous (for an industrial producer) P/E of 20, I think it works out at a SP of 30p. So there is a lot of work to be done before we romp ahead. I hope I'm still around. At any rate, the official target of 67p seems a long way off.
4) BTW, How's your car air filter doing, ultra-cleaning the local air? My car's too old to find one to fit.
This doesn't answer your interesting question but its true that H2 has a high heat capacity , ie it absorbs heat. So if eventually theres lots of H2 being used, some will escape. It will carry heat out of the air into the stratosphere. It will (however slightly) reduce global warming.
"A battery-electric 40 ton truck with 500km range needs 8 tons of battery.” says Hirose.
From your link.
Thank BB for your predictably facetious and accurate reply. I didn't know that these filters were out there and mandatory. So point taken. I can only hope they are changed reliably because I haven't seen that.
No doubt you know that NOx is partially dealt with by lowering burn temp to reduce its creation, at the expense of power efficiency.
As for Hydrogen, well, thats a great idea. Please tell us more.
" Alstom and Eversholt are now working with stakeholders to develop business cases and detailed plans for the introduction of hydrogen-powered units and the associated fuelling infrastructure. Conversion would be undertaken at Alstom’s Widnes site, and Breeze units could enter service from 2022. "
...working with stakeholders to develop detailed plans for the introduction of ...the associated fuelling infrastructure
They'd obviously try to use their own product. Still, ITM might benefit indirectly.
Alstom use a Canadian Fuel Cell (Hydrogenics). That company also produces electrolysers. So ITM might be excluded. OTH, there would be a need for many electrolysers, so ITM could get into the act.
On a completely different matter, it crossed my mind that the Govt could enforce use of very effective air filters on piston engine cars (it could be done) and remove the particulate matter that people are always carrying on about. Bit like a vacuum-cleaner bag. It would need a large area of filter paper but no big prob. (Oh I forgot: there is no Govt. Come on, Queenie, close 'em down. What use the Royals if they out up with this!).
re: http://www.itm-power.com/project/tidal-energy-storage
Is this a new deal, or just a step forward on an old one? This is good, but is it money in the bank?
Siemens etc: for what its worth, the guy I spoke with was on the ball and is running the show --- where ITM (in one of their reports) looked as though they had the business. But not so.
So nimble or not, Siemens have premises, will have H2 supply, and are collaborating on some bus or light rail system.
So its real, happening there.
ITM supplied fotos which appear in that same project write-up but they are nothing more than archive pictures as it turns out. It seems Siemens had a better argument, and I repeat are building their Electrolysers in Erlingen in Germany.
I agree theres room for many but this is clearly a place where ITM was in the mix but didn't win.
Siemens Drive Train.
I chatted (!!) with a Siemens guy & hear they make PEM Electrolysers just like ITMs. Installing them.
This is ITMs turf so I was a bit disappointed.
I imagine the bus will need Filling stations and ITM might get in there. But if its a Siemens deal, ITM might get squeezed.
I have stuck with ITM but they really seem to be up against competition. The other company I know about, HYGS, faces churn and loses cash.
There is spare electricity in Scotland and its on ITMs doorstep. What ARE they doing???