Member Info for bonxie

BenAlder: the other raw material costs are insignificant compared to vanadium (last time I checked, the cost of acids might have gone up massively since...). Sure, there will be processing costs. But why would anyone expect to earn a 50% margin on this? It's not a luxury car!

Tekanalyst: we are trying to compete with Li-ion batteries. Roughly, you can compare the electrolyte cost with Li-ion cell cost as this is where the $/kWh comes from (as opposed to $/kW). Li-ion is around $100/kWh (admittedly getting more expensive recently and this might be sustained) so you don't want to be 3X as expensive.

They do give an energy density of 20 kWh/m3 though. With $6.5/L, the cost per kWh works out at $6500/m3 / 20 kWh/m3 = $325/kWh.

This isn't a viable cost for electrolyte (should be aiming for half of that), so let's hope that we can achieve closer to $3/L than $6.5/L.

Hi superzero, my take on the cost from the alibaba page is $5.0/kg electrolyte at larger orders, with a density of 1.3 kg/L. By multiplying the two you get $6.5/L, which is quite a bit lower than your $11/L, but twice my $3/L for the vanadium . Sadly they don't state the concentration.

So $220/litre is way way out

I make it $3/L for the vanadium in a 1.5M electrolyte with V2O5 at $9.9/lb.

$9.9/lb V2O5 divide by 0.454 lb/kg =
$22/kg V2O5 divide by (51*2)/(51*2+16*5) (mass V in V2O5) =
$39/kg V multiply by (51/1000) (molV/kgV) =
$2.0/mol multiply by 1.5 (mol/L typical electrolyte conc.) =
$3.0/L cost of vanadium in electrolyte.

This is approximately consistent with eastocks' figure of $125/kWh above if you assume an energy density of 20 Wh/L ($3.0/L * 50 L/kWh = $150 /kWh)

tekanalyst, I was under the impression that the price of 80%FeV was per kg of vanadium. Happy to be corrected.

Not quite, because a dollar today is worth considerably more than a dollar in ten years time.

Well, cash being king in uncertain times would be one reason. I agree the arrangement leaves him open to questions regarding conflict of interest though.

Good point. I've only driven a Renault Zoe, but found myself pulling out vey late at roundabouts because I could. Presumably trivial to cap the power output through firmware though.

6h is going to be ideal for firm PV power, a massive market globally.

That's the cost, the wages will be considerably lower.

Thanks Lindon, I was replying to the suggestion by NobbyD upthread.

if they can use PV and storage to keep running during load shedding then they should be installing whatever battery they can lay their hands on fastest rather than waiting to make their own electrolyte.

If it's sustained, it aint a spike :P

Thanks! I did mean more on the piloting side though. It will be interesting to see how markets like this will avoid double counting, e.g. payment to the forestry owners plus payment to Drax.

Jensen. Absolutely, BECCS is the crux for Drax in the medium term. Does anybody know where they are they up to with this?

Thanks for the correction pb940.

This is all generation, and mainly wind and PV. You can see the winners here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1088875/contracts-for-difference-allocation-round-4-results.pdf

beginerman, if it's anything like other SPVs in renewable energy, BE will receive a dividend each year from the project revenue.

I can't believe BEIS funded Gravitricity.

I calculate that you would need to lower a concrete cylinder of height 13m and radius 3m about 50m down a hole to get 109 kWh, which is about the same energy content of 2-3 EVs. Sounds super expensive even before the kit for electricity generation.