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See my previous few posts for potential value. No evidence for either bears or bulls and just plentiful speculation. Could you at least use the word "your" correctly please Hex if you're staying? It damages your credibility..
Wednesday 00:11 HITS:
“I therefore have nothing new to say.”
“However as and when Amit looks to re-run yet nother 419 with yet another amazing pre-IPO investment opportunity, I'll probably chip back in with a word or two.”
Think you could be onto a winner if someone was happy to take the other side of that bet Elf.
LOT in answer to your question regarding competition I’m struggling to source any and that’s really quite sad. I don’t doubt that the big players are trying in the background though – I wonder if the IMEC patent is in their way at all? Are they moving on up or sideways? Some are just changing the names on their devices (see Fitbit’s latest releases for corporate).
Some useful reading material for those wishing to not go round in circles:
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000461
Search for Onitor in link below:
https://tarnaeluin.houseofbeor.net/ces-2017-reduction/
Similar round up for CES 2019 is on the same site.
Re: patent
Apologies I meant [0012] inventive step, regarding signal analysis.
Great to see you came to some sense HITS - thanks for your input!
Your misleading statements brought me back on here admittedly – at least now you know where the value could/did (your choice) lie for CTAG rather than the dismal “slightly tweaked ECG measurement solution” words used to describe the ostensible bull case.
Now for some more apparently misleading info I guess – let’s look at Amit’s statement on 5th November 2018:
“Cloudtag Inc.’s mission through its digital health platform focused on weight management is to target people highly susceptible to acquiring Type II Diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and risk of cancers by identifying those who are overweight in advance.”
*in advance*
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3593997/
“Exercise impairments in VO2 peak and VO2 kinetics manifest early on in diabetes, even with good glycemic control and in the absence of clinically apparent complications. Subclinical cardiac dysfunction is often present but does not fully explain the observed defect in exercise capacity in persons with diabetes. In part, the cardiac limitations are secondary to decreased perfusion with exercise challenge.”
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jobe/2010/191253/
“There was no impact of obesity on AC, indicating that obesity may not contribute to CV mortality through a loss of AC. CRF, however, was significantly associated with AC, indicating that the cardioprotective effects of a higher CRF may be related to maintenance of elasticity in central conduit arteries.”
“Strategies aimed at reducing CV mortality must, therefore, aim to reduce adiposity in the obese and increase or maintain CRF in all people.”
This is evidence that at least he knows what the market needs and what is possible with the tech IMEC has worked on. Other than this, feel free to go round in circles – it’s still everything or nothing.
Maybe some evidence the market has actually moved on would be good to share here and that’s about it – until the next snippet of news.
Rktech if you’re still out there (notice you weren’t keen to provide an alternative to measure EE), it’s partly the VO2 kinetics mentioned above where the ECG shines and surely Continuous wavelet transform is suitable here? Referring to 12th claim in below patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140180033A1/en
Wonder what number account Roe is up to now?
I think we could find a lot more to agree on Rktech. I was merely highlighting how complex weight loss and maintenance is and in reality we still know very little (with statistical significance) about it.
We can agree there is a need to understand energy expenditure properly (and not just for weightloss) – where would you start?
I am defiantly positive about IMEC's unique approach here. It cannot be put under the same umbrella as the failures of Fitbit/Apple and co.
This is seriously worthy of a full read:
https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/11369233/20151215
3.2 Page 41/42 explains the methods available (very grateful if anyone is able to add to the list)
A fair amount of the work in the document includes comparison to the failed approach of the companies mentioned above – they are using at best, “Activity specific using Accelerometer features”. It's interesting to note that Samsung recently started using static METS values (i.e. went backwards on themselves) in the Gear watches for sedentary activity clusters – they are one of the first to realise their mistakes, in my opinion.
It's worth noting CRF is assumed to be static in some of the chapters which highlights where the Onitor Track could come in.
The problem is inter-variability and IMEC's approach addresses it head on in a statistically sound way. It compliments their work on stress monitoring very nicely.
Any talk about versions of chipset I won't engage in as it is blind speculation. I can see that IMEC patented VERY CLEVER tech that could be nicely applied to the Onitor Track and I can see that they are not advertising it like they were in 2015..
If we don't have some kind of exclusive implementation of this work then I would comfortably say we have nothing. If we do then the “Future of Health” motto on the website suddenly doesn't seem so ambitious to me. I do agree that asking for products and results is of course totally reasonable.
On a side note there is plenty of write-ups comparing FFT/CWT for ECG signal analysis online – I can't say I find it too interesting but do understand the point you were making. CWT was used in the IMEC work linked above.
Rktech,
I hope all the links work..
@28 Jan 19 post
Weight-loss :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777230/
“ What I want to know is what does the IMEC chip bring to a single lead ( two wires plus ground reference ) onitor ECG.......nothing more. That is what Ben Haim refers to as " our core technology " “
If you would allow me to paraphrase that to : What I want to know is what is our core technology?
Well in my opinion it can only be related in some way to this patent that IMEC bothered to obtain:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140180033A1/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2745777A1/en
Notice no mention of Energy expenditure in recent press releases:
https://www.imec-int.com/en/articles/imec-and-tno-launch-comfortable-disposable-health-patch-with-long-battery-life-to-measure-vital-signs
Last (or one of?) mentions was here:
https://www.holstcentre.com/news---press/2015/smart-garment/
Related work (Not all of it, but most) to above patents :
https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/11369233/20151215
“Finally, we envision different opportunities for future work relying on the proposed methods. Such future prospects could be new applications guiding behavioral change by closing the loop between objective monitoring of physical activity behavior (e.g. EE) and changes in health status as quantified by CRF estimation.”
From the top of my head I think the end of chapter 8 and chapter 11 are worth a look, if not the whole document (and the plenty cited) to admire IMEC's approach.
https://www.imec-int.com/en/articles/imec-and-cloudtag-collaborate-on-high-quality-frictionless-wearables-for-lifestyle-coaching
“These sophisticated wearables can support doctors in diagnosis and follow-up of illnesses, and they offer a huge opportunity in illness prevention by serving as a virtual personal coach,” stated Chris Van Hoof, program director of imec’s wearable health program. “Our collaboration with Cloudtag is an exciting example of how imec’s technology can support the industry in realizing the next generation of wearable devices.” “
Perhaps there is some interesting reading to be had on virtual coaches and IMEC.
https://www.imec-int.com/en/articles/onitor
http://onitor.com/track.html
@29 Jan 19 post
Rktech,
Regarding the Fast Fourier Transform algorithm would you care to elaborate? What makes it such a game-changer vs Continuous Wavelet Transform such that the latter is worth nothing?
Hello Rktech, I note your post at 20:34 on Friday. Have to admit you lost my respect with it. What do you want from me?
You said that my previous "technobabble" was no doubt correct. (?)
How is it a fact that weight loss is 90% diet? I am not incentivised to reply if you make statements like that.
How about put some effort in to encourage mutually beneficial conversation now that you're sober? Start with some precision..
I don't come on here to repeat myself like some do.
Be careful what I wish for? Genuinely thanks for the laugh!
HeadInTheSand, going back to 19 Dec 2018 and your words:
“However, all CTAG ever had was a perpetual and exclusive licence to use a slightly tweaked version of an IMEC ECG measurement solution.”
You have claimed to be long. Is that all that got you to invest and hold through to delist? You’ve proven to be either heavily under-researched or intentionally biased here. 19 Dec 18 posts show you still have no clue what it was/is that sets Cloudtag’s *stated approach* aside from competition.
It seems futile talking about the investment situation currently especially in such a repetitive fashion? The share is not listed. Also you clearly are no altruist, which shows when directly calling others “poor desperate mugs”.
I can only think it serves your ego well, so that in any situation you will be right. You can either say I told you so as you clearly are gearing up for, or you get a nice cheque in the post.. Win win for your ego?
HITS EGO ALGO (unfortunately not exclusive but seems perpetual so far):
Length of post / Use of Post
Moving onto something more useful..
Interesting to see just how far the actuaries are:
https://www.vitality.co.uk/rewards/partners/activity-tracking/
Note the time related goals must be continuous at the related HR/kcal, they will not include/accumulate spikes throughout the day.. Nor will they register ( consistently) for various 5+ mile runs – checked with various colleagues using the series 3 and 4 Apple watch. All eyes what the next steps are in this area.
Surely it is not disputable that the Syte collaboration insinuates ABH still has some rather strong connections in very relevant industries? Alongside competitive tech which I still believe CTAG has (in coned fantacy land) there still remains a bull case in my opinion. Note the objectivity. There is no *good* reason to be anything but purely objective on a delisted share bulletin board???
As for controlling the narrative it seems pretty equal with new accounts like Antha popping up.
@marineville - "hasn't the world moved on from the tech they were pushing over 2 years ago?"
It would be good to define what you think the tech was precisely.. But the answer is still a resounding no.
Apple who were global leaders in wearable shipments until Q3 2018 are using the same old PPG sensor in their gen4 watch as their gen1 - please don't mention the ECG snapshot.
Xiaomi who overtook rapidly at the end of 2018 are pushing the cheapest price bracket (and of course lower quality) wearables.
Very exciting wearables in other sectors however!
Perhaps an assumption based on tomorrow being the last weekday of H1 2018..
I'll bite Hex but will make an effort not to repeat myself as this really has gone on far too long with little gain to be had sharing on a public forum as you childishly attempt to derail with your science bending. I've explained the reasoning and I have claimed I can back it up sure. Go back to the post you thought you refuted and actually disprove what I said? Failing that approach perhaps the below from yourself can be proven instead. "Your claims mismatch with the journal articles you post." Links to journals please. I understand entirely what I shared in all prior links. Careful of the thin ice that is ahead, you make mistakenly showcase your stat illiteracy. Judging by your last journal link and associated numbers prior and post I look forward to the entertainment.. Tips: think sustained weightloss and patient to patient variability when tailoring individual approaches I HOPE this will help you come back with a less futile and more realistic response.. Have a good weekend all
Oh wait sorry Doug, I didn't mean to share your secret mars bar habit..
*shrugs* Can one maintain scientific literacy alongside statistical illiteracy? Particularly alongside no grasp of reality? Doug I think you're onto something with rate of change..fancy 3 Mars bars and a beta blocker for your efforts? Now where did I get up to? The Onitor Track has an optimal design for the sector it is targeting...
Thanks... I'd almost forgotten we were talking about obesity. What with all the confusion with a certain hardcore computer scientist and his numbers... Perhaps some interesting reading closer to home - I see there's some interest. Back to reality! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868243/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4535334/ On an apparently unrelated side note.. Isn't obesity related to CVD risk somehow? I wonder what the implications of such a relationship might be...
Well thanks for the waffle, none of this actually refutes my 1309 post unfortunately... No proof just your flawed logical approach to Human Biology.
My 13:09 post stands entirely scientifically intact and explains how the Onitor Track by its design is optimal for the sector it is targeting. If you can refute any of it with science I will be grateful as I would learn something new. Until then dance around this BB ignoring reality. Is your excessive use of words used to hide the fact you messed up with RMR, the calculations in your illustration, or the fact you can't show another device that can 'handle metabolic adaptation' even just theoretically? P. S. I don't think Computer science is a core science. Maybe that has something to do with this struggle with reality... My Fitness Pal... Lol. Pull the other one, troll. I have a life to live Hex so not interested in repeating myself..
Get some sleep Hex.. Of course I don't agree. Read your link. "Healthy adults". After some sleep maybe it's time to seek advice from someone scientifically literate.
Nice link Hex... Don't think we are targeting healthy adults.
DougB sir you are welcome. I must say job well done!
Typical numbers don't look like that at all.... Shoo, troll. Maybe those figures are valid potentially for a tiny female who substitutes for a forklift in a warehouse as a job. I have a feeling she doesn't need an Onitor.