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They were talking about the option of green ammonia, though it was not clear if that was included in that cost, possibly not.
Thanks for that BB.
So I assume the ammonia will be derived from steam reformation of natural gas for the H2, the nitrogen separated from air and then the two combined using the Haber process?
It would be interesting to work out how much energy was required (and CO2 produced) to produce 1 KWh from the AFC EV charger using ammonia as the energy carrier.
Telephoneman,
Your post of 2nd Jan about costs of charging vehicles by the AFC ev charger. Sorry I was away at New Year and not reading the boards carefully. You based the costs on hydrogen, whereas they are talking about using ammonia. The cost they are quoting is 30 p/kW hour for fast charging, not 50 p as per your estimate.
Cheers.
BB
Sorry. That is RE your 13.48 Post Wolves. I actually thought that Alcaline Fuel cells did not need that level of purity of Hydrogen in comparison to the PEM cells used in vehicles. That was why the AFC cells were originaly chosen in the overall design to generate electricity . I understand this is now being reconsidered now although the fuel cell is still shown in the final DMG schematic.
Very good point Wolves. This has been one of my concerns about electrolysis to produce hydrogen from renewable electric. This sounds the best and most environmental way to produce hydrogen if you assume that water is a cheap and plentiful resource but not in desert countries where they want to preserve it. If hydrogen was produced using waste plastics etc and THEN used in fuel cells to produce the electricity and pure water this could be very popular in those countries.
I cannot see AFC buying expensive hydrogen from PHE or PHE wanting to sell it. It will also be some time before we get there either. They have to get planning permission first, then build the G3 , then check it for snags, and initially it will be syngas that is burnt to produce power, not hydrogen.
Rooky In relation to your 15.42 post I have just come across my notes from the AGM and at that time PHE ere talking to 8 major recyclyers and what I have noted as 7 intermediate recyclers so it looks like some of the big recycling companoes are already in discussion in relation to using the DMG technology. I also noted that the Spanish company is described as similar to Peel. All we need now is to turn some of these discussions to agreements and PHE will have enugh work for most of this decade.
Whilst I appreciate the cost of hydrogen being obviously important re production and supply, remember that PHE have stated several times that many waste owners, private and council are willing to pay to have companies remove their waste problems.
Only recently a waste tip owner was fined £45,000 for paying a cowboy outfit to dispose of said waste, and this was a relatively small amount, and I am aware of at least 2 massive general waste, plastic and tyre tips that have been given a cost of well over £1,000,000 for removal.
A EU ban on tyre dumps several years ago (when we leave, we won't go back to dumping tyres) has resulted in most being sent to none EU countries at a vast cost, where they sit above ground in dumps that are getting bigger by the day.
Now most of these countries are looking at ways to clean up their act due to environmental pressure, this will bring even more importance to safe and green disposal.
PHE have the chance to be a big player in the field of waste disposal, they just have to take it.
Ok conceded. We were originally told the cost of production at phe was £10 but has dropped over time and even now without a first unit built it's come down to £ 3.50.
I'm sure with the higher hydrogen output for a dmg unit produced this will drop further and as we scale up the volume we'll be more than competitive.
The cost hasn't been anywhere near £10/kg for a long time, here's the UK gov said back in 2016 :
"£5/kg is a low figure for small volumes but relatively high compared to what should be feasible at large scales."
They didn't even think consumer retail price at a filling station would be more than £7.5/kg, and there's no way that AFC or any other industrial consumer would pay consumer retail prices.
Note - AFC require 99.9% pure hydrogen whilst PHE are aiming for 99.999%. This purity comes at a cost making it wasteful/ unecessarily expensive to use in an AFC fuel cell.
Piltick, post 10.06 that is also my current understanding.
However, I believe originally they were looking for opportunities relating to the chemical industries that produced significant amounts off hydrogen as what was then often regarded as a waste product.
For those new to the board or this area of discussion I have attached the following link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
It was always my understanding that AFC was looking at providing a monetary stream for the hydrogen that had little or no real value. I think the problem was the purity of the gas being expelled and then to be used by AFC plant to generate electricity.
AFC didn't only have a single usable output, namely electricity, it plant also produces water, a sellable commodity in its own right especially in some of the drier areas of the world.
Wolves
Yes the cost to make it may be so but the market price is £10pk
Cost of liquid H2 is about $2.20/kg, not £10.
Never got to see a report on the Alkammonia project. Funny that.
Thanks for that info telephoneman. I have alway suspected that AFC would never be cost effective. They have always quoted costs of the electricity produced by their fuel cells without including the cost of hydrogen.
I believe that AFC will mostly use ammonia as their hydrogen source for their EV chargers, so unlikely to use hydrogen from PHE's DMG for that purpose.
Hi adamad, do you mean to power their electric car charger?
If Peel sell H2 to AFC for £10/kg, the current going rate, that's £10,000 per 1 tonne of H2.
1 tonne of H2 contains circa 33MWh of energy, if the AFC fuel cell is 60% efficient that reduces to 20MWh. Any other equipment within the unit such as a storage battery and inverters will reduce this further i.e. another 10% loss but we'll ignore that for now.
So, £10,000 for 20MWh of electricity is 50p per kWh and that is without taking into account the capital costs of the unit or any profit margin for the charger owner/operator, that is very expensive car charging.
Even if Peel were to sell the H2 at £5/kg the AFC charger would cost a minimum of 25p/kWh plus the operators capital expense and profit margin.
surely PHE will be selling its Hydrogen to AFC Energy for starters.
I have just read this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50873047 It raies the possibility that in the future some of the gas used will be blended with hydrogen. I believe that I discussed it with DR who did not rule out this type of use for the Hydrogen created. It would possibly mean a change in the balance between electricity and hydrogen generated.