Member Info for fleccy

I watched the Bitconned documentary on Netflix last night, really good and worth watching. At the end it questions why people still invest in Crypto irrespective of all the scams and losses of individual life savings, it's the desire to get rich quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDqRvMmuUcU

I saw those Hardup, but I believe the Telegraph article omitted Barclays as they aren't listed specifically in the Doug Taylor CAT lawsuits.

https://www.catribunal.org.uk/cases/16007723-doug-taylor-class-representative-limited

https://www.catribunal.org.uk/cases/15997723-doug-taylor-class-representative-limited

https://www.catribunal.org.uk/cases/15987723-doug-taylor-class-representative-limited

These class actions were initiated last July and don't appear to have gone anywhere since. The class actions only cover the period from 2015 to 2021, which I believe this is due to a legal limitation period on this type of claim, I have no idea if this also applies to the FCA rulings.

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/claim-preparations/civil-claim-limitation-periods

"What is the limitation period for different kinds of claim?

The relevant limitation periods for different kinds of claim as set out in the Limitation Act 1980:

Claims in relation to a contract: 6 years

Claims in relation to awards in arbitration: 6 years

Claims in relation to debt arising under statute: 6 years

Claims in relation to personal injury: 3 years

Claims in relation to negligence: 6 years

Claims in relation to recovery of land: 12 years

Claims in relation to breach of trust: 6 years

Claims in relation to tort: 6 years

Claims in relation to defamation and malicious falsehood: 1 year"

It seems to be an anyone's guess situation, as to how this will unfold, but I doubt it'll be anything close to the Martin Lewis headline grabbing £40 Billion statement and it'll be spread around a lot of different parties, not just the Banks.

BMW financial services are owned by BMW, so one way or another the manufacturers are also on the hook.

No mention of Barclays in the Telegraph article, yet they're also heavily involved in Motor Finance.

"Who this applies to

This applies to you if:

you used car finance to buy a car before 28 January 2021, this includes hire purchase agreements, such as Personal Contract Purchases

your lender and broker had a discretionary commission arrangement

This doesn’t apply if:

you used car finance to buy a car on or after 28 January 2021

you used a hire agreement, such as a Personal Contract Hire"

https://www.fca.org.uk/carfinance

It isn't just the Banks who're at risk from this, car manufacturers are also on the hook:

"In Beckett v BMW Financial Services (GB) Limited, BMW had allowed the car dealer discretion in setting the rate of interest paid by the customer under the agreement, with the dealer pocketing the difference in interest as commission (this is known as the ‘difference in charges’ model). The customer would end up paying a higher interest rate under the car finance agreement as a result of the way that BMW had decided to remunerate the dealer. The Court found that this practice amounted to an unfair relationship; the linking of interest to commission meant that the dealer was incentivised to get the customer to pay more in interest (and therefore a higher amount under the credit agreement) so that the dealer could earn more itself. The failure to disclose this meant that the customer was not able to make a properly informed decision about the credit agreement and made the relationship unfair. Using the wide discretion under the unfair relationship provisions, the Court also ordered that the customer should receive payment of the commissions along with the recalculation of the credit agreement, so that she also received an amount equivalent to the overpaid monthly instalments, which had been inflated because of the commission structure.

In Prendergast v BMW Financial Services (GB) Limited, a similar situation existed. The dealer also had discretion to vary the rate of interest payable by the consumer upwards, and this had resulted in commission being paid that had not been disclosed to the customer. The Court again found that this created an unfair relationship. The inequality of knowledge between the ‘sophisticated’ lender and ‘naïve’ customer regarding the commissions was found to be a classic source of unfairness and sufficient to render the relationship unfair. Furthermore, the Court went on to state that the purpose of the CCA was to provide consumer protection, and in this instance there was ‘manifest unfairness’. As a result, the court ordered that the undisclosed commissions should be paid to the customer, along with interest at 8%"

https://www.hyperianlaw.com/insights/pcp-claims-is-car-finance-unfair

Most probable worst case is payback of commission with interest, I have no idea how much that'll cost Lloyds and others, but it's clear it'll cost the car manufacturers too. I have no idea if the banks will be able to claw back commission paid to dealer brokers, but since the brokers are FCA registered you'd think they should be held accountable rather than just blaming the banks and other Motor Finance Providers. The FCA appear to be looking at everything Motor Finance related.

Chid, what your view doesn't take account of are investors who've lost their shirt on other stocks not paying dividends, leaving many investors sitting on paper losses with no return. The major flaw in your argument is it assumes all other investments are better and that someone leaving Lloyds to invest elsewhere will automatically do better, this is the real world where lots of variables come into play and nothing's certain, just because Lloyds is underperforming now doesn't mean it always will.

Clearly your arguments are aimed at damaging sentiment, among viewers on here, for reasons only known to yourself. Lloyds could go either way, but as long as it pays a dividend it'll offer a return to shareholders, many investors in underperforming non dividend paying shares aren't getting anything back.

I had a quick look at this and it was being looked at by the FCA going back at least 6 or 7 years. It isn't just Banks like Lloyds on the hook for this, it's also Companies like BMW Finance owned by Bayerische Motoren Werke Ag, or BMW in English.

I have my own view on this sort of thing, nobody needs to accept the interest rate on any purchase whether it's HP or PCP, so why are the FCA/FOS making an issue out of this now? Many years ago I complained about an issue with an endowment saving product I'd cashed in, with the cheque not arriving as promised, when I complained to the insurance company they said there had been a mistake and would send out a new cheque; The new cheque arrived a month later, but because of delay in the payment the policy was in force for an extra month and it subsequently dropped £20,0000 off the final payout due to the way payouts were calculated by the company. I complained to the company and the FOS with my claim rejected by both. I felt really aggrieved and vowed I'd never invest in any sort of Fund ever again; I consider myself blameless with what happened to me, people making claims like this agree to the payments and were happy with how much they would have to pay.

The FCA will probably damage yet another UK sector hanging on by its fingernails, which'll probably result in job losses and more expensive cars, well done to UK regulators for slowly hammering more nails into the UK retail sector coffin. If the FCA knew about this for 7 years, or more, why are they only just taking action now? I assume the Motor Finance Brokers are registered with the FCA, so why should the Banks take any hit for misdeeds of approved Brokers? If the FCA rules were unclear did the Banks/Brokers/Car companies do anything wrong and if so why are the FCA now creating this situation?

The motor industry is already barely making a profit, with many cars barely sold above cost and companies margin/profits supported by the Finance products they offered buyers, car prices will probably increase on the back of this. I've read that the dealerships are averaging a margin of around 7% on new cars and around 12 to 15% on second hand cars. On high volume models the manufacturers apparently make around a 1% profit margin, which probably means they rely on offering Finance products to boost their margin.

To answer your question Bluepanther:

Bitcoin bothers me because:

I can't see any use for it

It burns through massive amounts of Electricity to process each individual Block

I don't see how transaction costs can cover the cost of mining once the Block Reward quantity drops off a cliff, in the absence of an ever increasing Bitcoin price

The narrative about scarcity is fake in my opinion, since Bitcoin scarcity is an artificial limit, based purely on agreement between interested parties and not comparable with real world scarcity.

The reason the vested interest Whales push the scarcity narrative, and talk up the idea of Bitcoin hitting $1 million, is that they're talking their own book and realise that the only way the proof of work mining system works, is in an environment where the Bitcoin price climbs with each and every halving.

Because I don't believe Bitcoin has any useful purpose, I consider it important to express that opinion to counter the vested interests running media campaigns promoting the token.

Shouldn't a new thread be started with a Subject header of BTC now $45k !?

"Vod will go bust imo"

But everyone knows your opinion is meaningless Jax, just like the opinion of any wind up merchant.

Clued it was an Off Book trade, so not used in Price Setting.

It shows on the Google chart as a spike down and also shows on LSE Trade Recap page if I put in specific times, but London Stock Exchange have changed their spreadsheet download facility and for some reason I can't go as far back 09:22 to capture the raw data. I have no idea why it doesn't show in the day range, maybe it was cancelled at some point later.

https://www.google.com/finance/quote/VOD:LON

At 09:21:45 this morning, a trade went through at 56.42p for 54.151 Million shares; Why would someone sell that much stock at 12.44p below the On Exchange price? On the open market the seller would have made an extra £6,736,462 at a sell price of 68.86p.

But he buys his toilet paper from Poundstretcher:

https://images.app.goo.gl/91Jw6Qw6jer8h1Si7

Here he is doing his shopping:

https://images.app.goo.gl/6HDPeVairA8kdghm8

Jax you're rubbish at winding people up, you need to be a bit more creative in your arguments. The best way to wind people up is to not be obvious about it, so far I give you 2 out of 10 for effort. Mole's a little bit better at it, but his motives are obvious too, I give him 5 out of 10.

These ETF's are a last desperate attempt to keep the BTC music playing. For all the enthusiasm in St Moritz, many of them are probably quietly worried. The crypto market has probably attracted all the enthusiast/believer cash it will, and a large chunk of current invested cash is probably speculative; These ETF's are an attempt to bring in cash via the backdoor from people who wouldn't normally touch Crypto, in my opinion. Because Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, or efficient real world use, it will eventually come to nothing. A lot of money is currently being spent on pumping this event, it may well be a last hurrah for Bitcoin.

Suthy you're getting desperate, going off your ramp ramp ramp posts.

PAS I wouldn't be over confident if I was you. The 2021 peak and subsequent collapse damaged sentiment among many die hard Bitcoin fans. No doubt the hype machine will attempt to pump this to infinity and beyond, but it could easily turn into a damp squib. Anyone with any sense can see Bitcoin for what it is, nothing special, so we'll see what this does going forward. If the ETF's don't have the effect of raising the price going into the next halving and the price subsequently drops significantly, it'll kill most of the big miners and it's anyone's guess what that'll do to confidence. Clearly these ETF's are aimed at bailing out the big money Whales, who're overinvested, personally I'd rather see them get burned than the little guys.

No need to apologise to me PAS, as much as I despise Bitcoin it'll have no affect on me or my investments whatever it does.

As expected the ETF's will be Cash-Only and wont allow In-Kind create/redeem transactions.