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Agreed, I don't see anything really bad coming from Wednesday -- Ottawa has too little a footprint. Dated information? Forty years? An employee. Cool. Fervently defending your company. I think that's so cute.
You know all this weird talk about HRG and their tech stuff is all old hat and I really don't know where the info is coming from....Having worked with this Company for 40 years you all have it wrong, and your insight is not justified as its all dated...HRG has moved in leaps and bounds on its tech hardware and software. So from a man who handles all this every day of the year get the facts right. This Company is solid and any negative talk will not rock its foundations. Those of you that may have sore heads because you are out on your ear need to buy a punch bag instead of taking it out on this site. I for one am not amused by some of the comments. Its not professional and this brilliant Organisation deserves better.Look what happened to Chuck Hagel....
not sure what is true any more.I think they have some problems especially in Canada although I do think we are getting a dramatized version here. If it is going to cost mon they have normally been very conservative and taken the bad news quickly so might allocate a loss on the account in the accounts this time round. They have already reduced expectations by the profit warning. On the other hand met a few Scandinavians recently and they are speaking very highly of HRg , especially how they handle Statoil which is a huge account. They are winning business in the UK although beginning to wonder if their IT is up to it. The good thing is the company has so many eggs in many baskets that I think they should come out reasonably. the one thing that would really disappoint me would be if the dividend will fall. A strong dividend will sustain belief that end of year and future years results will still come in strong. Will also keep a close eye on debt
Can't see shedding a 1/3 of the jobs in Ottawa amounting to changing profitability for the company as a whole. Certainly, I hope not. On average 40K jobs and for only a few months. The severance packages alone will usurp the savings. None of the layoffs will go back to work for HRG if called back. Well, maybe a few will have to. And what is the chance things will ramp up after the Christmas corporate travel doldrums? Nil or very high ... Now start training again because no experienced travel advisor is going to be fooled twice, three times or even more. HRG has done this before: actually two simultaneous classrooms of thirty trainees each while an announcement of fifty were being laid off in July -- mostly very experienced with the client having been 'saved' from the American Express contract divestment on April 6th. I'm not on the inside so I don't know what happened to them, but it must have cost a whack because it IS. How could this happen? These are facts, and there are many more equally amazing. But there should be no change in profitability based on the Canada contract. If there is, it will be more systemic. Countdown until Wednesday?
will be on Wednesday at 7am when they announce the 6 month results.
I kind of hope they do find out. I suspect they can add two plus two and come up with four. Besides, my one boat is bigger than any one of the three DR owns. :)
Don't be insulted, saying you should buy shares was a little tongue in cheek, maybe the English humour didn't come across, but it would be odd if would buy shares in a company you clearly don't rate :-) I have no problem you saying what you do and I don't know if you have stepped over any lines but I think Whoops is right that if HRG ever should read this they might be entitled to ask LSE for your identity as others have done before.
Sorry to burst anyone's bubble here, but nothing has been said that goes over any line, imaginary or not. Exoneration will occur if and when there is some sort of culmination or reconciliation of faltering accounts. Take my commentary for what you want, assimilate with whoever else has voiced their opinion. This forum is about share price, you are right, and my commentary is designed to illuminate some of the problems I see in my own little microcosm here, and from the onset I was surprised to see so much similar sentiment here, which may help to explain price. That in itself is enlightening and reassuring that my perceptions are not whacked or clouded in anyway. My commentary has been designed to cast perspective on the company's operation ... What possibly can be wrong with that. I'm somewhat insulted that you've suggested I buy shares to cover my losses -- this implies you're predicting share valuations to increase? I certainly hope so for all concerned. I just wonder where the shares will come from?
yOu are absolutely correct. I have also seen people being identified to companies and ending both being banned and in one case in court. I think Candaq is close , very close to the line where his attack has to be reported. The difference here is that it is clear that he is not here to discuss the share which is the primary objective of the forum. He is clearly here to damage the company and, fair enough, to raise issues that he feels are wrong with the company. Clearly he has beenhit personally in some way by what has gone wrongin Canada and I feel sorry for him fo rthat. I do feel that he is taking the conclusions wrong by drawing from what happened with this one account to the future of corporate travel industry. I have been to many of the conventions for travel buyers over thelast 12 months and it is not even on the agenda whetehr TMCs has a role , it is what that role is , how they do it best and how they get paid for it. The move that we saw a few years ago both in terms of online and direct bookings being a threat to tMCs has abated. yes, the model keeps changing but the comparison to things like the music industry is not valid, buting a piece of music is a lot simpler than sending1000's of corporate tarvellers out in the world, getting the best fares, the right hotels in the right locations with the right visa and health information and the working with the companies how to get most out of their travel budget. there is a lot more to it but no need to go into details. It is today a professional trade, wher the TMCs need to have well trained , high paid advisors who can add value to the physical buying of the ticket which is the easy part. TMCs have a future,whetehr HRG will be one of the 4 main global players as they a re today only time will show. I see the Canada situation for all its human tragedy as a blip and HRG being dividen wise and profit wise back on track soon. I admit I invets in shares for the profits, don't take too emotional stake in the companies I invest in, sorry Candaq for whatever misfortune has misfallen you but this is all about what the SP will be and what didvidends I get and what I can get for my shares when and if I decide to sell them. Sorry if I sound selfish but that is what this place is about.maybe candaq should buy a few shares and make up for what he has lost elsewhere.
Hi Candaq. I think you have made your point. I also sense from your last post that you have heard what I am saying and so good for you. These internet boards have the ability to draw us in and make us feel invincible - encouraging us to make increasingly emotive comments behind the anonymity and protection of our user names. The fact is we are all just one step away from being identified - and as individuals we take significant risks if we say things which may be interpreted as attempting to damage the reputation of a company - or worse still an individual. I have seen it all before - and this board is getting very close to that point. Please, everyone, continue to discuss and debate this company and make your own decisions about what you choose to write and say in public...All I am saying is that there is a very strong (certain) chance this board is being monitored and there is no protection whatsoever offered to you by LSE surrounding your identity. If you say something which is damaging toward the company - or any client of the company or any individual, you should be prepared that your identity will be revealed and you must be prepared to deal with the consequences...From my own painful experience? Yes...Whoops
Thanks very much for your genuine concern. Naming the president of North American operations, commending and warning him of problems within his organization. Geez, I think I should be given a medal? I don't see how it is any different than other posters naming Radcliffe regarding share purchases or anything else for that matter. Having finally got some attention on this chat group, I look forward to my comments percolating to the top and maybe, just maybe, will affect change for the better and be beneficial to stakeholders? Besides, nothing mentioned is anything more than connecting dots already extant and formulating commentary on what I think is wrong. And by all appearances there are others who think likewise. I also don't believe my commentary on the future of corporate travel is inappropriate here since it is certainly pertinent to future viability of the industry. I am hardly a travel expert, but I believe my insights to be cogent and accurate in their depiction based on information readily available through various media. That said, I'm confident that I've made my point.
Hi Candaq, please correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is you must be connected to someone who has lost their job in relation the Government of Canada contract? If so, this explains why you are here and the anger you must feel towards the situation. I am trying to work out what is going on. Reading between the lines it looks like Hogg Robinson has taken on a piece of business believing it to be one thing, whereas what has been required by the government, and materialised, is something quite different? The company has then had to change the shape of its service which has unfortunately resulted in many good people losing their jobs. If this is the case, I apologise for any earlier comment I may have made. I would understand how difficult this must be for you. All said, I would urge you and others to be very cautious about what you are saying here. Trust me when I say there is absolutely no protection whatsoever offered to you by these internet boards. The likes of ADVFN, LSE, iii etc. won’t tolerate their services being used to voice personal problems. This is definitely not the best place (or way) to be dealing with it. I've been around these boards for nearly 10 years and seen these situations escalate and go horribly wrong for posters. People think they are immune and free to say what they like regardless of how derogatory it may be towards a company or an individual. Firstly what happens is you get shut down. (Normally it ends there). However, depending on what you’ve said, and especially if it’s been about an individual, or is viewed as an attempt to damage the reputation of the company - then the lawyers will arrive. You have already named individuals and you are pointing the finger at Hogg Robinson for a situation which may not be of their making. Please be very wary of what you may be getting yourself into. I’m not saying you don’t have the right to be here, I’m just genuinely trying to help you, and avoid you provoking something which has the potential to become a personal nightmare for you and your families. With respect…Whoops.
I neither recommend buying or selling and I don't own. I just hate watching small armies of talented people go down the rabbit hole having summarily laid off or dismissed in 'packets' just the right size to skirt Labour standards in Canada, not realizing they are contravening the governance and laws of the contractee which pays them? They need help and they need it fast. The level of incompetence is breathtaking. I find it amazing that the likes of Greg Treasure can be bamboozled by his band of merry VPs and Directors who currently cling to their jobs by obfuscating the truth to their superiors by camouflaging their pathetic attempts to correct serious process management issues and attrite the only ones who can help who as a byproduct make their bosses look like the buffoons they are -- way out of their league. If GOC was a restaurant, the directors and VPs overseeing were promoted from busboy thirty years ago having surpassed their abilities long ago. The buck stops at the Treasury, he needs to open his eyes. Treasure Measures -- if deftly deployed might be able to turn things around, but sadly, I don't see this happening. And it is probably too late. I don't even see a stalemate outcome. I see total and abject humiliation no matter how they shake this risk. To put another way: we used to buy books, then records and CDs by mail order, but no longer. Consider personal corporate travel solutions the next casualty platform to go under to the first company that created an all encompassing travel solution for the corporate world as we have increasingly more tech savvy customers coming online.
I think they had a new CFO about 2 years ago. I am not sure Candaq is doing> of course he can come here and **** off HRg. Obviously seriously disgruntled for whatever reason but no doubt it has hit him personally in a big way. Understands the business although some elements are not clear for me. his anger about Apollo, as far I know Apollo has more or less the same market share as Sabre worldwide so it cant be that bad. What I amwondering what is the reason for the rant. this is a share forum and I am pretty Candaq doesn't have any shares although of course he could be angry that he lost a of money when the shares dropped. Otherwise why come on a shre forum to vent your anger. He is fully entitled but is he out to damage HRG by advising people not ot buy shares . I have never believed anyone buys or sells due some anonymous ramping or deramping on a share site. and the shares in general circulation on HRG is so low. I doubt the institutiosn or bigger shareholders will start selling because of this. Interesting to see what the next chapter wil be. I will start doing my own research as I really have no idea of the truth in Canada.
Brilliant conversation on the HRG board. Candaq you obv have a lot of information and I think you have worked for HRG in the past and are now working for a competitor in Canada. I agree about the service you received in Canada it is awful UK clients are getting the same but yet senior management cut staff for pretty account managers and sales mangers who cannot answer phones make reservations just to please shareholders and the bottom line. HRG please stop that is the wrong way to go about it the company needs investment in people again it was a peoples company that is why it got in the Sunday times top 100 companies now it would not make the top 1000. I think the company has gone stale the management structure has been the same for last 5 or 6 years maybe time for new blood a new MD FD maybe something to cheer us up.
Gosh and all over a few shares......Take two painkillers and a copy of Forbes with you and hope you feel better in the morning.
Polar opposite commentaries . . . at least it is getting interesting. Wrong, I am not a disgruntled employee, but am close to the problems here in Ottawa. You are right, HRG is as good as it gets at culling personnel to mitigate losses and remain financially viable. However, there are problems with this concept when you terminate employment assets in light of not 20% service levels, but on occasion dipped to 4% for the day. 20% is the average level of incompetence. How can you justify 'laying off" employees respective to these ugly servicing problems? -- Technology that simply doesn't work using Apollo as a backbone rather than Sabre. This leads to online booking that never works and requires human back end fixing, refixing, manual manipulation of data, billing, customer relations, etc. I call it management by 'Post It Note.' This leads to frustration by the client and results in a phone call, phone not being answered for TWO hours or on hold and overburdening of these resources, much more time required to deal with a problem and unmanageable financial drain to manage the onslaught. HRG is forced to terminate employees knowing that service levels will hit bottom and pray that the GoC will outsource elsewhere. And they are. Will this buy them time to regroup? I don't think so. At some point I suspect the government will lose patience and cite Breach. In fact, I would guess HRG is posturing themselves and will avail themselves on their only ace: the ratio of online booking v telephone did not meet the RFP. But the ace immediately becomes a deuce when the GoC sources out dozens of disgruntled management , employees and intermediary consultants contracted by the government who have left because of the cluster nightmare. I doubt that GoC will cave, and have much deeper pockets. I know one who has a lunch date with the client next week. Names that rhyme with Chapin are going to be all over documents soon, already having fired salvos of intolerance across HRG's pulpit. Its tough to lose an entire country. That just doesn't look good. BUT the most serious issue, and one that most scares me, is HRG senior management has the uncanny knack of terminating the best lesser but exceptional management talent, since simply by there mere presence brings to the forefront HRG's senior management's incompetence perpetuating a veritable Gordion Knot of cyclical damage. NO company can continue to operate like this and survive? The cyclical hiring and firing of assets, earning disfavour with prized contracts corresponds neatly with the cyclical buying and selling en masse of shares exacerbating the effects of supply and demand, ie, cyclical overabundance.
don't disagree with you that everybody needs to renew themselves in the travel business and that the city doesn't understand the TMC business. Where I do disagree is the fact that retaining more than you lose should mean the turnover should go up. That is not so in this business where fo instance HRG doesn't sell on gross sles but purely on income and with the increasing online business and therefore lower management fees that number will not go up in line with new business because the average income per transaction drops. The trick is to balance your cost accordingly. You say we will never reach the heady heights of 80, well we did not long ago. As for HRG selling , I think they will have to. Consolidation is the name of the game and thre area number of candidates. 2 companies already own over 20% of HRG , namely DNATA and BCD whre DNATA is a friend and BCD definitely not. I fany of them should reach 29% they have to make a bid and they both have the money especially at this price. American express have just been taken over and have money available. There is also the option that exactly because the city doesn't understand HRg they take it back private again, maybe with the help of DNATA. They did it before, remember. The face of the company David Radcliffe is popular but must be in his 60's now so not sure how long he will wantto continue and that might be the time to move. I can only speculate and also only speculate on th eprice, but I do know that it would not be unreasonable to pay6-8 times earnings for a company like this and that means a much hgher price that we have today. Time will show but nice to see knowledgable people discussing HRG here.
As a regular and long term reader of all things HRG, I can't help but smile at the constant banter and vain hope the share price must eventually reach the heady heights of 80 or 90p on the back of that elusive takeover by another rival. Fact is the City doesn't understand HRG, it never has. Not sure if it's a service company, travel agent or some quasi travel consortium. When British Airways catches a cold down goes the price, ebola, terrorist threats, weather, flaky clients, all go into the mix. And Buller if your sources state they have the highest retention rate and still win, then we'd see record sales numbers wouldn't we? Well we don't, they win and lose like everyone else in the Contractual business merry-go-round as clients tender and re-tender. HRG has some sound business but re-invention and a refresh of senior management may be required to keep this business afloat in an ever increasing and challenging business model that some reliable sources say is simply not sustainable as margins continue to erode. HRG has had a fine reputation for many years, we'd like that to continue, but they have to cap the oil well of bad news from overseas business if they are to be taken seriously. DYOR
Nice one Hootspur.Show me one TMC that takes over a large account and does not have problems. Reading some of the notes it make me wonder are they investors(if so if you have fallen out of luv with HRG sellup) if you have any knowledge of setting up new account or taking over from another TMC you will know you have to on trust the figuares given to you by the customer if they fail to match your expectations then you must cut costs(remember the customer is always right)
We can all talk blue in the face on HRG. The facts are simple none of you wouldn't have put your cash on it if it wasn't a good Company.would you....??? So let's say there are some problems, but do we need to get them out in the open on this site...Not really.... What Travel Company doesn't have problems right now, and you all know some are almost running on a shoe string..Yes HRG has sacrificed a lot of good personnel out of work, but they really had no choice. This Company will keep its head above water, and will be amongst the survivors in the travel sector. It has up to now, and with the current board that it has will see it well into the future. If you have doubts then you shouldn't have parted with your money. As its coming up to Christmas you may want to put your money on a real "Turkey" rather than a cracker........................Humbug to you all....
the 20% means targets the clients have set in turnaround times and call answering. HRG are like a gambler they only tell you when they are winning. I do expect a buy out at some point and hope we hit the magical £1
of course things go wrong form time to tiem , not sure what you mean by service levels of 20%, are you saying 80% of transactions go wrong or 80 % of clients are unhappy. I am happy to learn and listen but it was so obvious that Candaq's gripe was much deeper seated than as an investor, he was simply out to harm HRG. I am surprised in what you are saying . Mysources say that HRG has the highest retention rate in the business. They do keep winning business who obviously need to take references before they can award a contract. It is clear that Canada was not good but through out most of the world theyd o have a good name and in some markets a very good name. The SP must be based on performance and there is not much difference in the financial performance now compared to when the price was 80. So either that price was far too high or this is far too low or something in between. I think the sell off has been overdone (not even a sell-off) , just a price drop and think that it could get back to 50 pretty soon. 80 is probably a long way off again except if we see a bid which could happen anytime.
Buller I think you might be a little hasty in dismissing candaq. Not everything in the HRG garden is rosy far from it especially with the share price being what it is. I cannot disclose my relationship with HRG but I see the very poor service levels day in day out by this company with the majority of clients. Some clients are getting a service level of 20% of this company and the name is turning sour each day with staff and clients. I want the company to do well I have been in since the early days I know they have just done around of cost cutting but have the correct people stayed or gone suppose we will find out soon enough
so you were a disgruntled employee, thought so, you might have an insight but you certainly also have a coloured view. Corporate Travel has been global for a long time now. HRG is not seen as a Uk company in the same way that BCD is not seen as a dutch company or Amex as an American company. Corporate travel has also been online for many years now and HRG are some of the quickest adapters to this method. That is one of the reasons why the industry changed from being travel agents to to travel management companies. The work is no longer in the actual physical act of booking but in managing the spend, the quality control , the data delivery and the usage of the data. it is a far more specialised industry and if you do not realize that might be one of the reasons that you lost your job. As for the worldwide recession I guess we can all put that one out there. At the moment all forecasts for corporate travel show steady growth both for 2014 and 2015, but in any case even during the recessions in 2008-09 HRG made healthy profits and they used the opportunity to cut their costs to suit their future strategy. I have see n this business ofr along time and even 40 years ago the doomsday speakers were out there saying the industry would die within 5 years. Yes, if you don't develop you will die but HRG do keep developing and that is why I believe they will continue to do well and pay a reasonable return on my shares Whoops2, nice to see a fellow Hogger on here. There are quite a few over the years who seemed to have good knowledge on the industry who have commented but of course there are very few shares in general circulation (because none of the big holders wish to sell) so the action is pretty limited. It went up on fairly low turnover, went down on th e same and now I believe time to turn upwards again. We are few months away from results but I think the profit warning will have covered any bad news and expect dividend to be at least the same if not higher than before.