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Some very valid points raised here Foz and John. Anyone considering holding and going down the rabbit hole with Ganfeng really needs to consider all of these points. These are the reasons I decided to offload the majority of my shares as I wasn't prepared to take the risks. I sincerely wish all those holding the best of luck and I really hope you get rewarded but the stakes were just too high for me.
This is the thing john, what if your current brokers can’t hold it due to being a private investment?
If you look at crowdcube for eg they can hold for you like a nominee/custodian account or above a certain amount you have to be a private holder directly.
So for eg Cornish lithium when privately raised, if you bought 20k+ crowdcube aren’t holding it for you in a nominee account -therefore when it comes to voting as an eg you can’t vote via crowdcube you have to vote independently.
My assumption is that when this goes private it will come off the likes of hl platform therefore they will not be not acting on your behalf.
Any updates won’t be from hl or rns them. Any conversation with company has to be direct. You will hold your shares and they won’t have them on their platform.
I recently had an ipo where Hargreaves said to me were not sure if will quote the stock and therefore couldn’t guarantee other broker I wasn’t set up with could send across to hl.
As it was they could in end and are quoting but that tells me if they no longer quote bcn, which they won’t as private, then they can’t hold the stock for you.
There is so much to think about that just is headache after headache. I have nothing to gain by trying to help here to be clear I’m just trying to alert people to potential issues they haven’t thought about.
Good points Foz, sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about ISA only, must have misread.
Not totally convinced 67.5p by GF will be the last Market transaction, if before finally losing the quote non-accepting BCN shareholders can still buy/sell. But is likely to be similar. Don't really know exactly how that will work tbh.
My point about seeking professional tax advice was really based on the scale of holdings. I was in the actuarial field in my working like but always liked personal taxation so completed the ATT exams just before I retired. I learned enough there to realise that tax advice from someone truly competent (and there are some incredibly impressive people, not just the barristers, who work in tax) is very valuable but correspondingly very expensive - I know from previous conversations that your holding was a good size, but I am thinking that buying such tax advice would be prohibitively expensive for those with modest holdings. Just trying to be helpful. My experience with HMRC is that they are actually very approachable, that they accept most reasonable interpretations you put forward and best of all are free! No good small holders blowing their small profits (or increasing their losses for those that aren't showing a profit here) on professional tax advice. I haven't looked but there may also be articles on the internet.
What I find mad is that if you are keeping the stock and it’s goes private have any of you actually asked your brokers such as Halifax, ii and Hargreaves and anyone else what happens to custodian of it?
John/Matt as said I’m not talking about isa….
I own bcn in my share and trading account AND Isa,
I have said yes so doesn’t bother me but those that haven’t I think you need to seek tax advice.
Because the last share purchase which will be Gf on the deal will be the shares you own.
I don’t think Hargreaves will allow you to keep them on their platform as custodian. You might need a separate and private broker. If that’s the case you will be transferring stock at a market rate. Now hopefully it’s just a transfer but if it’s a transfer of stock back to you at 67.5p you could be on hook for capital gains.
I genuinely don’t know hence saying seek tax advise.
I see it In same way if you have capital loses on another stock In your trading account and want to use them this year you would bed and isa if have space in isa account. That means a put through with broker or a simultaneous buy and sell from trading to isa account.
Fwiw hl haven’t been offering this bed and isa since covid but will do a put through at massive fee they’ve stung me on already last year.
incase anyone was unsure who was playing… https://www.lse.co.uk/rns/BCN/holdings-in-company-8gs93vdtcvlb38g.html …
interactive investor - znwd shares in my isa for last couple of days. Bcn still showing in my isa at current market rate, but obviously cant sell them because I voted. Have to say have had no problems at all with interactive investor.
Correct what I just said, I wasn't thinking.
By definition until it delists (if it does) BCN will be marketable so will not necessarily be 67.5p. The price to use when it drops from your ISA would, I think, technically be the SP of the last deal (though how you adjust that according to whether that was a buy or sell is beyond me. There will probably be an official published 'price' to use).
A similar concept is relevant to holders in non SIPP/ISA accounts in respect of the acquisition cost of the ZNWD shares we now suddenly now hold.
Be much easier to just keep our dosh in the Nationwide.
Until the moment BCN leaves the ISA any gains will be non taxable. Similarly if you were unfortunate to have a loss then that loss wouldn't be usable.
As far as I can see Matthew you are correct, once it drops out the historic cost of your BCN shares going forward would be 67.5p - its a bit like putting shares into an ISA from a non ISA account at the start of a tax year - your don't effortlessly slide them in, you sell and repurchase, so it is the price at that point that SP is crucial for CGT.
Not sure exactly what you are saying foz, I think the ZNWD shares will be irrelevant and they will stay in the ISA. As a dividend paid while BCN was quoted, and thus qualifying for an ISA, then they are outside taxation. Furthermore the historic cost of the BCN shares when they went into the ISA is also irrelevant.
Matthew, being a nerdy pedant swot (like wot I is) I would correct one thing you say. In non tax efficient wrapper (ISA or SIPP) all gains and losses are subject to CGT so always taxable. Its just if the net of all your gains and losses exceed that tax years CGT allowance that you have any tax to pay (but I think that's what you meant).
Morning Matthew, you are talking about Isa. Isa not concerned on treat everything tax free. Forget isa.
I am saying if you hold the stock outside an isa and are reset at the “delist” price (don’t know answer here) which will be 67.5p and your average is 30p you will have a capital gains In those accounts. You will also have to treat znwd as a dividend. So everyone that doenst one this in their isa and hasn’t said yes might well have a cap gains and dividend bill regardless.
https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/ZNWD/holding-s-in-company/15264422
Ok, few tax questions there; I hold in an ISA, so in regards to the ZNWD shares (issued as a dividend) there is no tax, zip, even if you got 100k worth! They will stay in the ISA.
If (big IF now) BCN shares are delisted and come out of the ISA, your purchase price is reset to the delisting price. It will not matter that your average price is 15p, 30p, whatever, you will not pay any CG tax for the shares coming out of the ISA. This, of course, is not so good if you have a higher average. If the shares are then sold at some later time, then CG tax will be paid on the gain from that delisting price, probably 67-67.5p. And that assumes that the gain is enough to be taxable. That is how I understand it but will yield to someone with more tax knowledge.
Hi all, don't be suckered into selling your ZNWD shares for such pocket change. MMs played some games today to get you to sell. The share price should be 30p+ for starters and is heading back towards that direction.
Continue to take advantage of the discounted price tomorrow (still below placing) as we should hit 30p and above in the short-term, given the valuations being given to lithium projects. ZNWD's mcap is well north of 100mil given the resources they have.
https://www.reuters.com/business/chinas-huayou-buys-lithium-mine-zimbabwe-422-mln-2021-12-22/
https://www.reuters.com/business/rio-tinto-buy-lithium-project-argentina-825-mln-2021-12-21/
Dont agree Bob. They are the legal owners, rendering the beneficial owners helpless. I'd argue they are not discharging their responsibilities. Maybe you could argue that you could sell and take them to the ombudsman for the difference? Better than potentially being stuck with illiquid shares. As everyone should have the ZNWD shares and BCN is still 67p then I guess people who are caught like this may as well sell? I'm not recommending that by the way, just thinking out loud
@ johnpwh "tell them you will hold them responsible for financial loss you suffer." But they might tell you that it's your responsibility to minimize your damages. So just sell the shares at hapenny less than offer. If you hold 10,000 shares your damages are 50 pounds, less the profit you made by reinvesting in ZNWD. Anyone with more shares than that, should have enough sense to follow what is happening.
Sound like we agree then Mr Frogster.
Can see how it can be anything but IT rather than CGT as it became payable before the takeover is paid out, is a dividend, and is also being paid to (potentially) ongoing BCN shareholders.
I think Dee's theory may well still be correct in that Ganfeng cannot have minority shareholders as part of their mandate...
johnp - Agree, but this leaves the question what was wrong with Secker and the rest of the BoD ?
Apologies - ZNWD - fat fingers
johnpwh, my understanding is that the ZWLD payment is treated as a dividend therefore is potentially subject to income tax as opposed to CGT (if, as you say, held outwith a tax wrapper)
Matthew
Was with you until you talked about income tax. If BCN is not in a tax wrapper (SIPP, ISA) then the value of the ZNWD shares received today cannot be ignored for tax. Question is how.
My opinion is that being a dividend the value of the ZNWD shared you acquired today (ie at the price at market open this morning) should be taxed as income in 2021/2.
If, and I doubt this , it is subject to CGT then I guess its possible that you could simply use a zero acquisition cost for your ZNWD going forward, so it will be caught on eventual disposal. Alternatively (ie still taxed as CGT rather than income tax) you would need to apportion your BCN acquisition cost between BCN and ZNWD in the ratio of the value of your BCN shares at 67.5p and the value of your ZNWD shares at market open today (and then your acquisition cost of ZNWD going forward will be the SP at market open today).
You could get a definitive answer from a personal (rather than corporate) tax consultant but that will cost - this is unusual so I'm really not convinced an accountant would know. Or you could ring HMRC, they are quite helpful
Hi Matthew agreed on comments re znwld and creeping up.
Re tax So this is where my concerns would be, if you were still in and say Hargreaves lansdowne took off their platform do they issue the shares back to you at private sp?
Therefore you are eligible for cap gains…
My avg is 29-30p and I’m 425k stock, lot is out my isa so I would hate to cover a cap gains bill in a stock I can’t even sell….
To be clear I don’t know the answer here but I don’t even think people are considering other possible issues. iv accepted to be clear as I don’t want this headache anymore and I’ll make more from cusn and znwd than here in private bcn in next 6 months.
The procedure for acceptance of the Offer is set out in the Offer Document dated 15 September 2021. The Offer will remain open for acceptance until further notice. Settlement of the consideration to which any Bacanora Shareholder is entitled under the Offer will be despatched to validly accepting Bacanora Shareholders (i) in the case of acceptances received, valid and complete in all respects, by 17 December 2021 (the Unconditional Date), by 31 December 2021; or (ii) in the case of acceptances received, valid and complete in all respects, after such date but while the Offer remains open for acceptance, within 14 days of such receipt.
Yes, I wouldn't worry too much though. IF acceptance get to 90% everyone gets paid out. As acceptances are suppose to remain open, I suspect brokers will have to issue a new corporate action. You can quote the RNS to your broker but something will probably be issued in due course. It has been this much of a mess right from the start, you kind of get use to it!
@Fozdog No CG tax for going private. Any gains you have from holding in an ISA will still be protected. Your new buy price will be whatever it is delisted at and of course if it did become possible to sell for a profit after the delisting then CG tax (currently up to £12500 not taxable) would apply. Same with dividends after delisting. If any are paid after the delisting you would have to pay tax if it was over the current £2000 threshold.
In regards to your comment about the same question about 75%, it is shocking that so many still don't have a clue about what is going on here. I am suspecting that acceptances will creep up to 90% now so many retail investors are coming out of the woodwork and this farce will have all been a bit of a waste of time! :(