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Potatoehead, Long time.
I recall KOD being talked about here around 3 years back.
For now any new investments of mine are strictly within the crypto space. I cant stand the corruption on AIM and the banking system in general.
Back to AMC, you did well to only lose £6400.
You must have put up with the paid AMC shill who was here daily to promote AMC by any means, a complete fraud... forgot his long username, it will come to me.
Anyway, what do you think about slowlyslowly post, is it true holders are due a dividend, or just wishful thinking like the AMC project always was?
Slowlyslowly, thanks for the reply.
Is this accurate information you are giving?
I dont see why I shouldnt be able to track down the dividend or share count, as my broker has held my shares for a long time.
Did you receive an email or letter for this? I didn't get anything.
My shares just show as £0 in my account.
David....I am currently invested in KOD, a lithium mining company, which I believe will be a successful long-term investment. I have already recovered from the loss I suffered with AMC. My decision to sell my shares in AMC at a loss of £6400 was based on careful consideration of the current situation. I am confident that it was the right choice. As a shareholder in AMC since 2009, it was disheartening to exit with a loss. I believe RY is holding around £1.5m of AMC shareholders' funds, maybe more but i have no idea what will happen next to AMC.
David, that's 3.75m shares. They sold the Kun Manie project and paid most of the proceeds back to shareholders in the form of a 1.8p dividend. If you had 3.75m shares that would have been £67.5k (so the discussions some on here were having on whether that's income or a return of capital, and so how it is taxed, becomes relevant to you). The company became a non-trading cash shell, which means they suspended from trading on 7th Sept 2023, having not completed a reverse takeover within 6 months of becoming a shell. They have until Thursday to do so, or the company delists from AIM, but remains a company, and they now hope to complete a reverse takeover and gain re-admission. However, provided you got (or can track down) that dividend, your 2p entry should mean you've got 90% of that back.
Hello guys.
I had health problems for the last 3 years which prevented me from using the board or monitoring my AMC investment.
I had quite a large position. - £75k at around 2p if memory serves correct.
What is the current situation here? Is my investment completely lost.
Glad to see some old names like GENG, ManuelDexterity, Potatohead, and many others ive forgotten.
The ChessMaster,
I would be interested to read your comments re the the Board's failure to provide guidance on the tax implications of the special dividend.
AGE
If you want to see how a Board of Directors ensured they sought tax advice re the payment of a special dividend then have a look at the Fuller, Smith & Turner PLC website and you will see two documents that were produced for shareholders.
The documents are in the Corporate/Investors/General Meetings section and one document is called "Circular to Shareholders and notice of extraordinary general meeting" and the other is called "Return of Capital CGT Guide"
The first document states:
"Taxation
Part V (United Kingdom Taxation) in this Circular describes the tax treatment of the Return of Capital for
different types of Ordinary Shareholders and includes information intended to assist United Kingdom tax
resident Ordinary Shareholders to calculate their likely UK CGT liability and to understand when and how
payment of any CGT should be made to HMRC"
Compare this to the situation AMC shareholders are in as a large number of us received big dividends which exceed the annual dividends tax free amount and take us into the 40% tax bracket and those shareholders who do not read LSE or ADVFN and they are totally in the dark as to how they should treat the special dividend in their tax return!
AGE
The tax issue with the special dividend is yet another reason to create an AMC Shareholders Share Action Group as I will then have members email addresses and I can email you all the document that I am going to attach to my tax return.
It would not hinder my case if we all use the same document.
Once it goes to the tax tribunal and they Judges decide in our favour that the special dividend is a return of capital then HMRC will have to process our tax returns based upon the decision in the tax case.
If I communicate with HMRC it will take them ages to respond and the 2023/2024 tax year ends on the 5 April 2024 so there is no point writing to them.
Have you not seen that HMRC have closed their telephone helpline service as they have a massive back log of unanswered post so they are taking their staff of of the helpline service to deal with the backlog?
AGE
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Agness
Would it hinder or help your case for anyone else interested to use the same wording as yourself ?
Can some peeps using different wording get a different result?
if you go to all this trouble and get capital return result, does that apply to all others or is each case assessed separately? If so it seems unfair its the first applicant who has does all the work and others don't have to.
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT OTHER AMC HOLDERS CAN DO WHICH WOULD HELP YOU.
For the time involved is it worth sending email or letters with the document you are suggesting asking amc to confirm its capital repayment.
nb after your previous musings on this I was going to put it it the tax form under capital loss uk share.
The ChessMaster,
Thank you for your comments.
You make some good points.
I am going to wait to hear more about the RTO before making a final decision.
I would be interested to read your comments re the the Board's failure to provide guidance on the tax implications of the special dividend.
To me this demonstrates incompetence on behalf of the Board which make me wonder if they are not capable of carrying out proper due diligence on paying a special dividend then how the hell will they do an RTO?
They do not inspire me with confidence in their abilities!
AGE
If you want to invest in a drug delivery company buy SNG. Those guys have seen their shares drop from £2.00 to 4.0p when it is seen their drug delivery does not work.
This target company that the boss is aiming to do an RTO want to tap the markets and is doing so to issue more shares. they are not profitable and earning are years away. No prospects here guys. Unless the boss is expecting to stay on and issues shares to buy this target so he can keep his job and the gravy train running. Better that they have not found an RTO and returned the cash. Who wants to be in another speculative business with the same people you had trouble with for years? These guys do not give a toss for shareholders. They do not want and end of their salaries for doing nothing and the benefits that flow with it. For God sake vote NO when you get the opportunity. Take the cash and say no thanks.
Since we share holders put a stop to Robin Young’s pay day loans with his mates at Crede he has hated pi’s with a passion.
My view is take an rto as quick as possible and get this back to the market so shares can be sold.If this is left to the current board to redistribute funds to share holders we I’ll have a very long time to wait and much less when or if we ever get it.Get this lot gone before they can leave us with nothing
MD
Agness
Would it hinder or help your case for anyone else interested to use the same wording as yourself ?
Can some peeps using different wording get a different result?
if you go to all this trouble and get capital return result, does that apply to all others or is each case assessed separately? If so it seems unfair its the first applicant who has does all the work and others don't have to.
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT OTHER AMC HOLDERS CAN DO WHICH WOULD HELP YOU.
For the time involved is it worth sending email or letters with the document you are suggesting asking amc to confirm its capital repayment.
nb after your previous musings on this I was going to put it it the tax form under capital loss uk share.
Agniessearner; I'm merely pointing out what the likely outcome will be if holders vote against the proposal. Personally, I don't care if holders vote for/against or not at all as my remaining investment here is no longer significant.
I expect few will even bother voting on the proposal regardless of what it is but its important that holders thinking they will automatically get the remaining cash in dividend format may be disappointed , as once they delist, there may be no opportunity for holders to monetize what's left of their investment for years.
One could reasonably expect the pharmaceutical company to have a mkt cp higher than its cash,this is, of course, in no way guaranteed but is likely so the shares can then be cashed in for a higher than cash price once the listing is back on the market.
I don't see the point in refusing the offer without considering it as some here intend as the outcome is then in no way certain and I may have my capital frozen for potentially years as it dwindles down in value whist they spend it seeking other opportunities.
If RY states in the prospectus rns that if the proposal is rejected they will pay the remaining cash as a dividend then I understand some may find this attractive but I very much doubt this will be the case.
He will simply delist and seek other opportunities, taking as long as he possibly can on each proposal.
That's why I think the best way to realise your cash here may be to go along with the offer ( providing it has some attraction that the market
will like) and then sell at a hopefully higher than cash price once listed but its up to each individual to make their own decision on what is best for their own personal circumstances.
Gwm121 as explained before when I submit my tax return for 2023/2024 I am not going to put my £60 of dividends in the foreign dividends section of mt tax return but I am going to provide information in the white box section of my return and I am going to attach a word document to my tax return that will be 15 to 20 pages long and I will provide reasons as to why I believe it is a return of capital.
HMRC will then disagree and then they will amend my tax return to include the foreign dividend and charge me dividends tax on £60k.
I will then appeal against their amendment to my tax return and then there will be correspondence between HMRC and myself and if we cannot come to an agreement then it will have to go to a tax tribunal.
If you read the John Buckingham case you will see that one Inspector of Taxes agreed that the majority of the dividend was a return of capital and the remainder was income in the hands of John Buckingham and the other Inspector who reviewed the case was of the opinion that it was all income in the hands of Mr Buckingham.
The First Tier tribunal agreed with the first Inspectors opinion!
As I said this is all so unnecessary if the Board had sought advice.
If you send the Board a message via the AMC wesbite they do not even have the courtesy to reply!
AGE
Agness
So will we each go to a tribunal individually with an accountant advisor tax expert? £££££££s
Would seem strange that for most long term holders with an average of say 10p, recouping 1.8pfrom the assetts sale, and say 2p from the eventual sale of the residue, should pay tax on the LOSS incurred...... (buy 10p sell 4p)
I really don't want the worry in the background of any uncertainty here. If the rto isnt voted through and cash returned, depending what they call it you might be paying top rate tax on all your amc loss!!!!!!
It would save enormous heartache money and worry for ry to rns that this was capital return.
Is it worth a number of lth all sending an email same wording to amc and brokers politely /desperately / requesting this?
Do you know what the best emails are currently?
TheChessMaster, you are doing a good job of trying to convince shareholders to vote in favour of the RTO!
But you have not convinced me!
I will await to see their proposal re an RTO but in the mean time I would like to form a Share Action Group as quickly as possible as that way we will all know in advance what support we can muster to block an RTO if we do not like it
If we do like the RTO then we can influence the new Boards plus Robin Young's future actions!
As far as I can see there are no draw backs creating an AMC Shareholders Share Action Group as it empowers shareholders as we cannot rely on Boards to act in the shareholders best interests!
There are 130 members in our Scirocco Energy PLC (SCIR) Shareholders Share Action Group and we have demonstrated our combined power by blocking the Board's ability to do any more share placings!
Over a period of 13 years SCIR has received £37,414,000 from issuing shares and the Board have been paid total remuneration including share based payments of £5,037,000 and the Company is currently worth £2.7m!
AGE
If they do that then legal action will commence!
AGE
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As I said, Those automatically voting against the proposal will not automatically get the remaining cash.
If the proposal is rejected, I fully expect them to delist and seek other opportunities whilst squandering the remaining cash, they can stay delisted for years.
So holders who want to see some return need to give careful consideration as once the delist, there 's no certainty at all that you will ever get any capital back.
mining is on its ****, nickel & other metals have all crashed so until the cycle turns again there's little point speculating in them.
therefore i can see why ry has not chosen to go down this long depressing road again.
sure,pharmaceuticals are equally as high risk and always a long shot but as i say this proposal may offer the best option to monetize whats left of our investment if the market likes the story.
ry will not be drawing salary on this so he only
gains if the asset increases in value so one could argue ry will, for once, be aligned with shareholders....or so it seems !
TheChessMaster, you are doing a good job of trying to convince shareholders to vote in favour of the RTO!
If they do that then legal action will commence!
AGE
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As I said, Those automatically voting against the proposal will not automatically get the remaining cash.
If the proposal is rejected, I fully expect them to delist and seek other opportunities whilst squandering the remaining cash, they can stay delisted for years.
So holders who want to see some return need to give careful consideration as once the delist, there 's no certainty at all that you will ever get any capital back.
As I said, Those automatically voting against the proposal will not automatically get the remaining cash.
If the proposal is rejected, I fully expect them to delist and seek other opportunities whilst squandering the remaining cash, they can stay delisted for years.
So holders who want to see some return need to give careful consideration as once the delist, there 's no certainty at all that you will ever get any capital back.
If the dividend is income in the hands of shareholders then we have to pay dividends tax on it depending upon the total amount of the dividends and this is not going to reduce the tax base cost of our shares.
If it is a return of capital then the special dividend is not subject to dividends tax and it does reduce the tax base cost of our remaining shares.
I have some AMC shares where the dividend of 1.80 p per share is more than I paid for them so I will make a profit on them but the majority of my shares cost more than the special dividend and any 2nd dividend should we receive it if the RTO is rejected.
AGE
Gwm121 it was me who provided information that the special dividend was a return of capital rather than income in the hands of shareholders which would be subject to UK dividends tax if your shares are held outside of a tax advantaged wrapper such as an ISA.
The problem is that HMRC will argue that it is a dividend so it is subject to dividends tax as when something falls within a grey area they will be argue that falls into an area where they can tax you on it.
They will do so on the basis that it is called a special dividend and a dividend is income in the hands of shareholders so it is subject to dividends tax.
The Board have not provided shareholders with sufficient information as they only produce a consolidated balance sheet however distributable reserves are based upon the balance sheet of AMC PLC and not the AMC PLC Group.
There is a first tier tax tribunal case called John Buckingham V HMRC which is similar to AMC's situation however first tier tax tribunal cases do not create a binding precedent that can be applied in our situation.
I suspect that we will have to go to a tax tribunal to obtain a decision!
This is all so unnecessary as the Board should have done their job properly and sought tax advice on the tax implications of paying a special dividend.
AGE
Hi Geng,
Yes, a lot of your calls have been bang on the money. My Average was about 1.75p so got some back with some more to come.
The outcome of Kun Manie was disappointing to everyone, a stark reminder of country risk and Black Swan events.
Personally, I added a chunk after disposal on the potential to double my money inside of 12 months either by the 2nd dividend or an RTO which would need to be worth more than the remaining cash. The rest I put into Kefi which i'm hoping has good value to come.
Will obviously read the proposal, but i won't be voting for it as expect a sizeable MCAP valuation to get their hands on our 5m.
Of course, it could be a ploy to drive out alternative deals and better terms from others (i'd definately consier another mining play).
It says something that I never considered a Nickel Mine exploration play in the Far East of Russia risky but a UK pharma i do
Hi CT,
Good to hear from you after so long and see you still have a sizeable holding. They must have got an extension from AIM because they have something in the pipeline.
Pretty much sold out after the divi, just hang around here out of morbid curiosity. I've made a lot of money out of AMC since 2009 as it has always been a great trading stock with quite a predictable chart but the good old days are over.
Agree with you let's vote it down and take AMC outside and shoot it!
They must
Agness
Have you lost money on amc?
If the special div was dividend not capital return when you eventually sell all amc you will have paid tax on a LOSS, (as part of this loss was special divi !!)
There was one knowledgeable poster who replied to me on this, ive got copies in my tax files somewhere, who said it was most definitely capital return, referring to different bank accounts et all, (far above my knowledge) Ill dig them out and post them if you wish.
IF an enquiry is raised the issue will be the large cost of a s[ecialist tax advisor accountant to discussit with the revenue, and the worry of a possible investigation over years to come. By then amc will be gone, presumably ii will close the board, and we will all have to get our tax advisors individually.
All this could have been avoided if amc had called it capital return not special dividend. (after advice)
However good amc investment is I will sell in this tax year if I am able so at least the whole amount returned is in one tax year.
I met RY on many occasions and invested on his personality and amazing drill results. It was confusing he never bought large amounts of shares with his own money. it was then disappointing to watch bad business decisions coupled with no news/delayed news, and his continued drawing of (HIGH) salary when the exploration stopped.
There are no fee no win companies after compensation re Woodford and Eros Media. I hope they don't see an opportunity here.
Slowlyslowly,
From the RNS dated 05.08.22 AMC have said they would distribute a 2nd dividend if the RTO is not approved.
"After Completion of the Disposal, the Company will become a cash shell and will seek to complete a reverse takeover which will require Shareholder approval within 12 months. Should an acceptable reverse takeover opportunity not be identified and approved by the Shareholders, the remaining funds from the transaction less costs shall be distributed as a second special dividend.
Interesting that todays RNS implies that AMC will remain suspended until the vote as opposed to de-listing this Friday.