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yes ray ...
Briefly going back to moditope.
The cd4 cytotoxic cell, in addition to retaining all the properties of the general , it also has cytotoxicity.
Does this sound about right?
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hiv-fact-sheet#:~:text=The%20general%20term%20for%20these,Hodgkin%20lymphoma%2C%20and%20cervical%20cancer.
without the CD4 helper ...
you cannot signal ...
you will first have issues with bacteria
then virus
then cancer
before you die of AIDS
which also tells you the CD4 help prevent cancer
Ray .. IMHO ... they are all key factors .. because the vaccine is trying to copy the natural response from a virus ...
But we have a problem with Cronovirus
it affects people differently ...
so the vaccine target is a minority group ... not the majority ...
lets wait and see ...
So our cd4 general can
1) activate the innate immune system
2) talk to b cells thus facilitating antibody production
3) aid in a CD8 attack of the pathogen
Seems like a useful fellow to have around in a fight.
Like i have said many times ..............
the CD4 helper T cell is the linchpin of the immune response .... if you study HIV ... you can see the effects of what happens if your Helper T cells ... get infected ...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Pzd_jRUp4hYC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=CD4+helper+T+cell+is+the+linchpin+of+the+immune+response&source=bl&ots=mu47gMY8mT&sig=ACfU3U08ziJUqhsIv4QSSDiCpFSZmn7p4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqhqKu38TqAhWNY8AKHSktAAYQ6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=CD4%20helper%20T%20cell%20is%20the%20linchpin%20of%20the%20immune%20response&f=false
So having a strong cd4 memory may be a key factor.
So people with a weaker innate system have to rely more on the adaptive immune system.
Having strong memory both in B cells and T Cells may give the best chance.
So, yet another question. In the case of an antibody based vaccine, to what extent do the B cells and Cd4 cells talk to each other to form a broader response? Will the antibody based vaccine also result in memory T cells and maybe, more importantly, what level of avidity do these cells have.
As Lindy said, it is not easy.
as i have shown ........ CD4 can also activate the innate system ... its the Link cell of them all .
The General
And it may be that in healthy individuals the innate immune system just gobbles up the intruders without resort to the adaptive immune system. This might be what happens in asymptomatic individuals.
Immunobody
They are DNA vaccines that encode a protein in the form of an antibody, but the parts of the antibody that would normally bind to the target protein are replaced with epitopes from a cancer antigen.
or in Covid with the virus target of interest
if you read that you can see three levels of activation ... of memory
B cell and CD4 talk to each other as they are both MHC 11 ... which is why you get the cognitive T cell ...
worth a watch
https://youtu.be/q5P5SrDQhOA
note the importance of Th 1 and Th2
Morning Ray,
An interesting question and one we have so much to understand.It appears the IgM is detected within days and then IgG a week two later in natural infections.
So we need to not only measure these levels and see how long they last and then look at patient sub sets etc so lots of work to be done.
You can understand the natural caution here given the expedited process and is important to generate data from the Immunobody approach to be better compare the alternatives here
So that in turn leads to another question.
How long does the memory effect of the B Cells last?
Another question is how well do the adaptive and innate immune systems work together during a Covid19 attack?
Would a vaccine that gives a boost to both branches of the immune system potentially give the best results?
and of course in this Business ......... B cell memory becomes a field of its own ....
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-019-0244-2
antibodies not long ....
but the creator of them is the B cell .... and they do have memory capabilities .. (activated B cell secretes antibodies)
https://www.geo.tv/latest/294340-new-study-suggests-antibody-levels-in-recovered-coronavirus-patients-decline-quickly
It occurs to me that what is missing is a graph of antibody level of patients over time showing how the antibody levels vary pre, during and after recovering from an attack of covid19. Such a study may be impossible to produce.
What I am attempting to say that it may be hard to gauge the significance of recording antibody levels of 1.8 and 2.8 times when compared to recovered patients.
How long do high antibody levels last?
quite a statement ....
For his part, Sahin told the Wall Street Journal the study should be completed by the end of the year, at which point the partners could seek approvals. Still, Sahin offered a word of caution about anyone expecting a quick return to normalcy. He predicts it’ll be 10 years before humanity can beat back the virus entirely.
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/after-positive-early-data-pfizer-biontech-ceos-sound-off-vaccine-timelines