LSE 00:01
You are listening to Investing Matters brought to you in association with London South East. This is the show that provides informative educational and entertaining content from the world of investing. We do not give advice so please do your own research.
Peter Higgins 00:17
A very good afternoon ladies and gents. Today I've got a very, very special investing matters podcast live for you from the Master Investor show. I will be talking with very special guests Algy Hall, Jay Younger, Moira O'Neill and Iain Barnes. We'll be talking about investing in uncertain times in a fantastic panel session. See you there. Take care. God bless.
Algy Hall 00:45
Hello again Algy, good to see you again, so Algy you're going to do the Investing Matters panel with me today?
Algy Hall 00:52
Can't wait.
Peter Higgins 00:53
Good man. Just give us a quick overview of your panel session. What's it going to contain, what we look forward to?
Algy Hall 00:58
Well, I think probably, there's a single word which can summarise it, which is stress, which is you, obviously you wanted to have that uncertainty. And really, I think, you know, when times are uncertain, what we're feeling is stress underlying it all. And we're worried about losing money. And when we're stressed, the way we behave alters there have been lots of tests. And fundamentally, we behave in different ways. And so there are ways that we can get a grip on ourselves and get a grip on our decision making. I thought that'd be the most useful thing that I could contribute to a panel today.
Peter Higgins 01:37
I think that'd be absolutely fantastic. I look forward to hearing it. Algy. Thank you ever so much for coming on, and helping us out with us today.
Algy Hall 01:42
Pleasure.
Peter Higgins 01:44
Hi, Jay. How are you today?
Jay Younger 01:46
I'm good. Thanks. How are you Pete?
Peter Higgins 01:47
I'm very well. Thank you, sir. Thank you ever so much for agreeing to come on to this Investing Matters podcast, live session with us. Can you just give us an overview of what your talk is going to be like today?
Jay Younger 01:54
Yeah, so today, I'm going to be talking about investing in uncertain times, and how important it is to stick to your investment process. So I'm going to highlight Aubrey’s key investment process.
So the key points that specifically invest in companies with a 15% earnings per share growth, along with company which can generate a 15% cash flow return on assets, why we get to 15% why we believe that's the minimum hurdle rate. And then by finishing off by saying no one is perfect to timing the market. However, if you have a strong investment philosophy, invest in companies 15% earnings per share growth, and a strong valuation discipline. Regardless of your market timing, you should have put them to work.
Peter Higgins 02:29
Brilliant.
Peter Higgins 02:30
I think you’re going to smash it today mate, I wish you all the very best.
Jay Younger 02:33
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
Peter Higgins 02:36
Hello again. Moira, thank you so much for coming on to the Investing Matters panel today. I just wanted to ask you just give us a brief overview synopsis of the talk we're going to have a bit later on today?
Moira O’Neill 02:45
Of course, well, it's about what investing in certain times means to me. And I think that most people will feel very uncertain about investing most of the time. And if the markets go wobbly, then there are all sorts of practical things you can do to beat the comfort, I'm going to run through my favourites and hopefully give everybody something that they can do to get some control back over their investments.
Peter Higgins 03:09
I'm really looking forward to hearing from you very high quality stuff from you as always.
Moira O’Neill 03:15
I’ll do my best.
Peter Higgins 03:16
Hello Iain, how you doing?
Iain Barnes 03:19
I'm well, how you doing?
Peter Higgins 03:22
So this is Ian. Chief Investment Officer of Netwealth. You're going to give a little talk today on investing in uncertain times, please share with us a little synopsis of your talk today?
Iain Barnes 03:29
Right. So effectively, there are two components that we think are important when investing in uncertain times. The first of which is to offer diversified robust investment portfolios that can manage a range of different economic and market environments. And the second is to give informed financial planning, qualified advisors, all wrapped up in a technological framework to give people confidence that they're on track to get where they need to be from a financial point of view.
Peter Higgins 03:58
Brilliant, we're looking forward to hearing you talk. So thank you for supporting us today on this.
Iain Barnes 04:03
Thank you.
Peter Higgins 04:06
Okay, thank you so much for coming into this live Investing Matters panel session with me. I hope you've had a look at your notes earlier to see the prestigious four, magnificent four that I've got as guests on my panel today.
And what we have is a discussion today on investing in uncertain times. Why? Because we are in very uncertain times.
So who am I? I'm Peter Higgins. I'm the host of the Investing Matters podcast, which is part of the London South East brand. And they commissioned me to put together a library of investing content to educate all investors from all strata, and all experiences. And what I've been doing is interviewing fund managers, economists and analysts and journalists of like to share their investing journeys, and I'm blessed today to have with me Moira O'Neill, let’s have a little wave Moira, award winning freelance investment specialist and currently the columnist with The Financial Times with a vast array of experience. And I've got Jay Younger, a little wave there from Jay.
Investment Analyst, Aubrey Capital. And I've got the smiley face assassin, which is an award-winning journalist and author, and investment editor at Citywire Elite Companies, Algy Hall, and I have also got Iain Barnes, Chief Investment Officer at Netwealth, and they're all going to do a four minute talk for you today on strategies to navigate uncertain times. So I'm going to share this quote with you from the father of efficient markets. And that person is Peter Bernstein. And Peter’s quote is the fundamental law of investing is the uncertainty of the future. And with that note, I'm going to start with Moira, will you grace us with your presence and share your strategies for investing in uncertain times, ladies and gentleman a round of applause for Moira please.
Moira O’Neill 06:16
So I'm going to defer on the investment stuff to my esteemed colleagues over here. But I'm going to focus on the practical stuff that you can do as an investor, to feel more in control, when things are feeling uncertain. And the first thing I do is I look at the long-term graph of the stock market, because that gives me confidence.
It makes me feel like, you know, along the way, they've been these horrible blips in the road, we've seen more awful things happening, the stock market's done a dip, and then it's gone on to rise up. And I think you can show that to anyone who's interested in starting investing to give them a bit of confidence to and of course, we always have to say, it's not necessarily going to pan out that way.
But for me, that gives me confidence. And then I think you do have to acknowledge that a lot of things are out of your control markets are out of our control, politics are out of our control.
But the thing that which is on our side is time, that there are not that many 10 year periods in the stock market where things have gone completely pear shaped for investors. So fingers crossed, we're not going to have one.
But I think you could also do lots of things that are in your control to make your financial position better. And one is to keep your costs low. I bang the drum about this a lot. So whatever platform you're using, has that got the right charging structure for you?
Could you move your investments elsewhere to get a better deal? You can consolidate your pensions to get your costs as low as well, lots of us have old pensions that were from our earlier careers that we could that might be a few thousand or so and put them together in one get a good play good deal for the pension management? And then are we using our tax reliefs?
I hope you all are in this room, you're probably using your ISAs etc.
But so many people don't do it, or they put it off or they have things in a general investment account and they don't move it in. And of course, capital gains allowances, dividend allowances are about well, they have been slashed, they're going to be slashed again next year, it becomes really, really important to have your investments in an environment where they are they are growing free of tax.
Are you getting as much pension tax relief as you could be really important to give your pensions a boost, get that income tax relief as well.
And then on the whole investment decision making front because when things are feeling really uncertain, that can make you feel emotional. And we have to acknowledge that we are emotional beings, we can rush into decisions, we can put them off just for the fear of getting it wrong.
I think it's really important when you're feeling that way to carry on making decisions but to make them in a rational way. So if you can write down why you're making the decision, why putting into an ISA why you're buying this share why you're buying this fund etc. and just write it down for your own comfort.
That's a really great way to sort of master a bit of control. We don't have to rush into things you can put your money into tax wrappers such as ISAs and just keep it in cash, park it in cash for a while.
While you make by you while you make your decision. And the other thing which is a brilliant discipline is drip feeding your money.
So paying yourself first drip feeding in on a monthly basis and making sure that you carry on investing through thick and thin because when the markets are going like this, if you can keep on buying you can get put yourself in advantaged by automatically buying on the dips and buying less when the market goes up as well.
When you look at your portfolio, I'm not a portfolio strategist, but there are some basic things I do for my own. And I'd probably do it once a year.
That's to just check how risky it is, how it's performed, check the mix of asset classes, have I got enough equities? Have I got, I got bonds, commercial property, gold exposure, some other things that hopefully will perform differently to the equities in there. And then is it spread geographically, so am I lowering my political risks by spreading my investments around the world, and then also, do I have different sectors in there, different industries, etc.
An infrastructure, food, things and in certain times that keep delivering are always good solid things to have in there.
And the other thing is to make sure they have different company sizes.
So mixtures of the big players and the smaller players and the medium players, I think it's just to give yourself a sense check every year. And then the other thing which I, I work with Algy at Investors Chronicle, I used to look at reader portfolios and analyse those.
And we always saw people collecting investments, a great length, so there was always a mixed bag in there for things that maybe looks a good, good idea 10 years ago, do you really want to be holding it today, spring, do a spring clean, check that if you would buy it today, and have that that's in you know, in your mind. And if there's anything that is there, which is a tiny, tiny, miniscule bit of your portfolio, you can just ditch it.
So it's under 1%. It's not contributing much to the overall return, consider ditching it and tidying up having less think about, because that's where you get these control back. And I'd also always, when you're looking at investments, consider your whole financial picture. So are the assets that you could fall back on in a worst case scenario, because that gives you comfort as well. And I think a lot of people if you're in retirement or nearing retirement, the asset that most of us hopefully have is a home.
That's always something to fall back on there. Could you downsize?
Have you had a conversation with your children about whether they would encourage that or not, etc. And then something which I've written about, quite recently, in the Financial Times is to use a free cash flow planner, to look at how your investments could pan out under different scenarios, because then it gives you an idea of the range. And there's some great tools out there, I'm going to give Netwealth a plug, which is my colleague over there, but there are some others, which are called financial mentor, or guide, which you can put your pensions investments into the planner. And you can say what growth rate you think you're going to get or what inflation rate there's going to be and see how it pans out of your lifetime. And if your money's going to last for you. And I would use one of those at least once a year. So by doing all of these things that give you back some control, I think you can feel less uncertain. I hope that's been helpful.
Peter Higgins 13:39
From Aubrey Capital, to share with you another strategy regarding investing in uncertain times, Jay takes to the stage or seat if you want to.
Jay Younger 13:47
Yeah, I mean, I could sit here if it's easier for me.
Yeah, I think when, when investing in uncertain times, it can be quite tempting to change one's investment strategy. So for example, we've seen Russia invading Ukraine, we've seen interest rates rising and inflation pumping and during 2022 as a growth investor, it might be quite tempting to allocate capital to those sectors, which are predominantly characterised by say lower P/E multiple because those sectors were typically outperforming such as energy dominated by oil and oil and gas companies financials dominated by banks was as a growth investor, you're probably in sectors which are characterised by quite high P/E multiples.
So things like information technology, and consumer discretionary stocks. And it was quite disheartening to see that despite these companies having earnings per share growth is much greater than the market or even greater than those sectors which were outperforming they experienced the most derating.
So why would you not change your investment strategy and allocate capital to those outperforming sectors such as oil and gas and financials?
Well, the answer is a proven track record. I've only been in industry for six years, minus two months sabbatical last year where I got lost in Mallorca.
But over my six years in the industry, I've seen how a strategy which is dedicated to growth investment outperform. And a key part of that investment process at Aubrey Capital Management is investing in companies which can grow their earnings 15% per annum year on year, and investing in companies which have a cash flow return on assets of 15% per annum, well, we call the self-finance organic growth rate.
And the reason why we choose 15% is if you look at the historical equity market returns over each year, they typically generate about 5% real rate of return, you then need to add an adjustment factor on to this for inflation, so call it 4 or 5%.
So it gives you a nominal rate of return around about 9 or 10%.
You then need to take into account the fact that as active managers, we need to justify our existence.
So we need to outperform the market by typically 2 or 3% each year.
So that takes you to a rate of return of around about 10 or 11%, you then need to take into account that not all our decisions are correct, sometimes we get them wrong.
So if we make the assumption that we get around about 70% of our decisions correct. If you divide 10, or 11%, by 70%, you get the fact or 15%. And the key point of this 15% is that that takes into account all the variables that we just spoke about the assumptions for getting things wrong inflation and historical equity market performance.
And long-term belief at Aubrey is that the company that you invest in its external share price performance will only mirror that of its cash flow return on assets, it will be no greater than that over the long-term.
So therefore, it's really important when you're constructing portfolios to construct them with companies which have a higher cash flow return on assets as possible, also known as the wealth creation of these companies. I mean, at Aubrey, we never claimed to be perfect market timers. And I think, in fact, many few people are. So if we go back to that assumption of 70%, getting your decisions right 70% of the time, if you perfectly market take the first chance, you've got 70%. The second chance, you've got 70% of that 70%, which is our probability of 49%. And then to get the third decision, right of the 70% as a probability of 34%. Were by contrast, invest in companies which can achieve at least a 15% per annum earnings per share growth along with a 15% cash return on assets, along with the strike valuation discipline, regardless of market timing, you should outperform with long term. So that's all I will say about investing in uncertain times.
Peter Higgins 17:40
Thank you very much Jay. Jay Younger from Aubrey Capital. Okay, I'll stay here this time. My next guest is a phenomenal author, and editor of Citywire Elite companies. Algy Hall.
Algy Hall 17:58
Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to stand up, I’m a stander when it comes to speaking.
Hello, so I thought Peter, that was a great quote, you started with the quote about uncertainty, because we're talking about uncertain times, but one constant in investing is uncertainty. You never know what's going to happen around the corner. Often the risks that we see in the market at one time, they, you know, they, they, they stay there for years and years, and then suddenly they spring out and hit you. So uncertainty is always there. But I think when we talk about uncertain times, what we actually mean is stressful times. And normally, people feel most uncertain when, you know, we've lost some money, and we're wondering whether we're going to lose more money, and it's a horrible feeling. But it also is incredibly interesting psychologically, because as humans, and which is common with other animals, we, when we're when we're under stress, we actually changed the way we view the world around us.
Time horizons shortened significantly. So rather than thinking about the charts, which Moira was talking about the long-term, you know, kind of charts of investments, compounding and us becoming rich, we think about tomorrow and the fact that the markets may open and we may lose a significant amount of money and it may seem like that at the time.
It's visceral, and we just, you know, we want to deal with the pain. And when we're under those kinds of pressures, we can make, you know, really silly decisions quite often. I mean, some sometimes, you know, it's like, it's not always the fact that we don't need to make decisions. Because we do, but if we haven't got a plan. We can really, you know, we can we can go wrong. We don't know why we're doing what we're doing, and we can do the wrong thing.
Also these times of stress, one of the really interesting things is we feel a need to latch on to narratives, we feel like, we want stories, which are going to explain everything to us, which is, you know, it's almost the opposite of uncertainty. Uncertainty is the fact that we just don't know a lot of things, we can't predict a lot of things. We're looking at history, and we'll see the stories which have played out over history and will in lots of things will look very certain the rearview mirror, but we fail to be able to appreciate that actually, during that time, the outcomes weren't certain they could have been very different, had things played out differently.
So look for explanations which don't exist. And that can also make us do dangerous things.
So anyway, what's all this getting to? What I think is, you know, the most important thing to understand about uncertain times is that head of entering a moment of stress in markets, you need to have your plan sorted out already, you need to really think about, you know, what am I going to do I know, as an investor, that, you know, when I look at these long-term graphs, so all these jumps down, and, you know, if you've been through one, you know, what they feel like, they feel gassy.
They feel like, you know, the world's ending, you know, the whole financial systems falling apart, you know, whatever it is it like, you know, you and even if, you know, it's not rationally feel it, so you need to plan ahead of time, what you're going to do in those circumstances, do you just do nothing? That could be absolutely fine. Do you just rebalance? Or do you think you have some kind of advantage, which means you're going to be able to trade it? I mean, I'm not a believer in market timing. And I think very few people actually are, because the record isn't, isn't that great. But, you know, if you do believe you've got that, know exactly why you think you've got that know what you think your advantage is. And I'm echoing something that Moira said, the best way you can put that plan in place is, write it down, write it, I mean, I'm a journalist, so you expect me to say something nice about writing.
But writing is incredibly powerful, just in terms of getting your thoughts in order. If you actually have to put them on paper, there's no better way to check that they make sense. And then also, if you want to make them usable in the future, to get them as succinct as possible, to get them down, you know, bullet points, a few clear rules to yourself, when you won't be thinking straight, because you'll be under stress. It's invaluable.
And also, just to extend that, to extend that idea of planning, your most important plan is, knowing what your objectives are, and knowing what you're going to do during uncertain times during times of stress. But you can also extend this idea of writing an investment journal for all your individual investments. So you actually know ahead of time, what you think's going to happen, so you can judge whether that happens or not, and also what you think may go wrong, what you know what, what you'll we'll really alert you to the fact that this isn't working out how I thought it would, or you know, this, it, it's not what I thought You thought it would be.
So actually, you know, timeout, I'm going to sell this and try and move on to something else. But um, I think that's really, you know, without going into the myriad of ways you can create your journal, just to actually try and start having a written plan. And also do it for your individual investments. It's, it'll make everyone in this room if you're not doing it already a better investor. And I'll happen quickly, and it'll be amazing. If you if you start to do it, I couldn't recommend anything more. Anyway. That's it.
Peter Higgins 24:00
And now I've got my final guest, Iain Barnes, Chief Investment Officer at Netwealth. Thank you.
Iain Barnes 24:13
Hi, everyone, thank you very much for your time. I'm going to just talk a little bit about how we see the world and the important things of managing money and uncertain times. And I'm going to touch on a few of the points that I think were raised by, by colleagues here. And the first one is really about discipline and something really resonated for me from all of the three different speakers as important points to know, keeping a structure something you're happy with.
So at Netwealth, we were launched in 2016 by a group of people who've had different careers around various institutions in the city, and trying to take the best parts of a traditional wealth manager and wrap it into a more technologically enabled sort of framework.
And by that, by that way, sort of taking the best of both worlds if you like. And when I think about the important things that are keeping in mind when managing money in times of uncertainty, there are two aspects I'd like to focus on.
First one is our investment approach. So as the leader of our investment strategy, it's our responsibility of building a diversified robust investment portfolios that can manage a range of different market and economic environments and we've certainly seen quite a few of those recently.
The second is making sure there's a little bit of flexibility and again, something else you touched on is within your framework, making sure that you're able to, to shift things a little bit as and when you need.
The most important part, however, we always focus on is efficiency. So we have a centralised investment proposition. So everyone looks at everyone's money is looked after by the same investment team. And importantly, we maintain efficiency across the range of portfolio. So we invest predominantly in exchange traded funds, or ETFs.
Because we feel it gives us like focused exposure to the areas we want to target. But also doing so at low cost. And that low cost component is, is really, really important because it gives a huge tailwind to the performance that clients can see.
So you get the compounding effect that fees are low and more returns get built up through time.
The second part, however, that we think is important when looking at uncertainty is the wider approach.
Now, Netwealth is what we call a hybrid company.
So it's taking high quality tech, half of my colleagues are developers or engineers. And by offering a strong tech framework, you're able to make sure that you can understand and interrogate your investment strategy, as you see fit.
And that, that that level of transparency and clarity is something that we felt is great is always needed. And it's something that sadly, quite lacking across a lot of the lot of the industry. The other part, however, is the hybrid is a marriage with qualified investment professionals.
So financial planning, enabling people to check in on the way that they're set up to deliver on their investment objectives is, is key. So having access to those people as and when you need it is vitally important when things change.
We decided however, to take things a little bit further and I was delighted that Moira mentioned it with the launch of a service called My Netwealth, which is basically a wealth tracking and forward planning tool that's available to make sure that all of your investments wherever they might be, are on track, so you don't have to rely on spreadsheets that you've put together.
Now it's a consolidator. So you can take ISAs there in one place, or your pension being managed by someone else.
So a lot of you may be DIY investors have stocks and shares that you like in in various different platforms, put them all in one place so you can see how things are going and keep an eye keep an eye on things as needed.
The key part is that it's free, you don't have to be a Netwealth clients to be able to use it.
So I'd love everyone to log on have a play around and just be able to keep an eye on everything. The next component is that it's for users of My Netwealth, we offer a sort of financial planning M.O.T, so a low cost checking that you can do periodically with one of our qualified advisors, just to make sure that your own plans are on track. And you're happy with all of those different moving parts that are available.
So from our point of view, I would say that the two things that are the most important is making sure that you've got access to diversified investment exposure, you're not subject to the market, changing its mind on what's attractive or not at any given point in time, so you don't have any too many surprises.
And secondly, have some sort of framework in place whereby you can check in either on your own or with someone who is able to offer advice, whether that's formal advice on an ongoing basis, or just a quick check in to make sure that everything's on track. And just so you've got an eye on everything is as it should be. Thank you.
Peter Higgins 29:34
Thank you very much. Thank you Iain. Okay, guys, we've only got three minutes left. So we're going to take two possible questions from the floor and when you ask your question when the mic comes to you please can you direct a question to the individual on the panel you want to answer it. Any hands? Anybody that’s got a question?
Yes, sir. The chap there on the front row. Have we got a second hand anywhere? We'll get to next. Ok, not yet, okay, go for it.
Member of the audience 30:12
When China invades Taiwan, would it be sensible to panic early and sell to completely into cash except in gold?
Peter Higgins 30:22
Very interesting question. So who's it to? Who is it to? General this question feels more competent? Who's the magic person able to go with that? Can I answer that? No. Algy go for it,
Algy Hall 30:47
I don't I don't have an answer on this. The specifics. But yeah, that's, it's obviously something which, in terms of the potential massive events in the stock market, it's something that is the biggest fear probably at the moment, because Taiwan is such, you know, so significant and, you know, significant to the US, as well as it is to China. And there's so much manufacturing of really high value products, which go on there. Definitely, there would be a case. So the saying, you know, if that was to happen, the stock market would be completely yeah, you know, you'd expect the stock market to completely have a wobble. Indeed. So, if you think it's going to happen, you'd want to stretch your portfolio accordingly.
Peter Higgins 31:37
Thank you. goes on, please.
Iain Barnes 31:41
So I was just going to say, like, super, super quickly. And basically, who knows, right? I mean, if reason history teaches us anything, it's you just don't know, when markets are going to decide, you know, what's important, and for how long, and markets have responded in many different ways to all sorts of different events. So you've just got to make sure you've got enough of a sense of things that respond differently to different events is what I'm saying it's impossible to second guess.
Peter Higgins 32:08
Do we have a second question?
Member of the audience 32:28
I just want to know roughly, what are your returns per on average basis? Because you say you run on very low cost charges? So what are the roughly returns per year on the basis of investments?
Iain Barnes 32:43
Well, so we range, we invest in a range of different strategies for different appetites of risk. So it really depends where on that spectrum you choose. But delighted with the question, we're really happy with the way that we've, we've beaten the, you know, the peer group of wealth managers. So it depends on it depends on the period, a risky strategy is targeting inflation plus three and a half percent over time.
Now, that obviously, that varies. You don't get that year in, year out. And when inflation is running as hot as it is at the moment, you wouldn't necessarily be able to add to that. But in aggregate, we've beaten the peer group by 1.75% at the higher end of our risk spectrum per annum over that period. So the tailwind of low costs is, it's just so important in compounding that if you do something sensible, and you do it efficiently, then all of those gains get accrued to clients, but everything's on our website. I'd love everyone to log on.
Peter Higgins 33:46
Can we take one final question, please? It’s not about China is it? Okay, right at the very back that's our final question, because we've run out of time. Thank you very much.
Member of the audience 34:00
Good afternoon, just wanted to get the panel's general take on commodity stocks such as BHP (BHP) and Rio Tinto (RIO). Firstly, do they think that these stocks are priced at the peak? Or are they have they sort of corrected themselves in the last few months and on the way up?
Peter Higgins 34:26
Anybody?
Peter Higgins 34:29
Well, I will speak on Rio Tinto because I am an investor in Rio Tinto and have been for some time.
It's a high dividend yielding company. Obviously we've got a cycle going on now. And a potential supercycle regarding metals and commodities going forward, but lots of uncertainty regarding inflation, interest rates all around the world. So metals and commodity stocks should do better than some stocks.
Safe haven usually is gold when going through a recession in really bad markets. And obviously Rio Tinto and other commodities should do better than other plays. That's all I'm giving you today.
Hope that helps.
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to this investing matters podcast recorded live at the Master Investor show with our stellar guests, Algy Hall, Moira O'Neill, Jay younger and Iain Barnes.
We will also be doing another live Investing Matters panel session at the UK Investor show on the 13th of May (changed to the 9th June) at the QE II Conference Centre.
So if you enjoyed this one, which I'm sure you did, please pay us a visit. Find the London south East stand on the 13th of May. We will be recording a live panel session once more at 10am.
Our session starts at 10am and we look forward to seeing you there.
Please follow the Investing Matters podcast on Twitter, on LinkedIn and across social media. And you could find me at Conkers3 on Twitter, and I'll keep you posted as to what we're doing next with the Investing Matters podcast. Take care, God bless look forward to see you soon. Bye bye..
LSE 36:11
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