DDDD.L Share Chat (DDDD)

Afternoon

Has anyone managed to make a negligible value claim with HMRC with reference to 4D Pharma ?

Going nowhere that stock

https://halpersadeh.com/actions/recursion-pharmaceuticals-inc

US stock that looks like a professional version of 4D Pharma. CEO from Nvidia has taken a position. Recursion Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (RXRX)

Hi

Has anyone managed to make a negligible value claim with HMRC

and if so could you tell me how to do this?

I lost £28k here !

The shares will remain in a PI's account until the Company is formely declared insolvent. The Administrators do not seem in a hurry to wind the company up.

Anyone who holds these worthless shares may wish to consider obtaining a negilgilbe value claim to HMRC. This must be done before the stock is formerly wound up. this enables the loss to be used in the Tax year the claim is made.

Ok..

Just noticed this is still showing in my account presumably it'll stay there until end of FY?

Strong buy incase anybody wants mine.

Interpath, the Administrators, are selling off assets. Funds achieved are being returned to Creditors ( Oxford Finance predominantly).

Interpath were appointed by OF, so have no responsibilty towards Shareholders.

So far as I can establish, Interpath are yet to aply for a Winding Up order. The matter could therefore drag on for many months.

In short, shareholders are left with noting ( shares are worthless).

Given the Administration and De-listing of the shares it is worth establishing a Capital Loss. Best to get an Accountant's opinion as I will.

Porky is over on the VAL chat board claiming there’s a class action ongoing about DDDD no evidence that there is though

Did anyone end up taking legal action against the company and get anywhere?

Nice work if you can get it...

Well well well - what i thought was a good investment -

ALL GONE down the drain -

This business could have made millions

4d carved up and sold off. A sorry end for the company and shareholders. I’ve invested into crypto but was once heavily vested here and synairgen. People warn about unregulated exchanges in the crypto sphere but they have nothing on the risks involved with AIM. It really is a minefield. I doubt I’ll ever return to it.

https://www.insidermedia.com/news/yorkshire/4d-pharma-subsidiary-sold-but-uk-and-ireland-jobs-lost#:~:text=A%20Spanish%20subsidiary%20of%20pharmaceutical,Cork%20have%20been%20made%20redundant.

Any updates around this and Shareholder Action Group etc. I deleted Telegram and hence no longer in the group

I sent email ages ago but did not get any response / invite to join AG

same no reply to me either. I sent my email to him on 14th March 23.

No reply to date.

wambat: Did you get a response from Colin in the end?

Sent an email Colin but got no response.....

Much activity going on. We will not let them ever ever ever rest for this.
And I hope they read this.
Email to be part of it.

Colin the AIM market is a Bear-pit in more ways than one. Seem to recall someone saying, many months ago, Interpath were good, they bring Company's back from Administration. I for one did not believe it sadly for all of us. They are part of a system that feeds the well-heeled, the minnions are "Gun-fodder".
The Market Regulators should remember the purpose of the market, without investors, big and small, businesses will not develop especially SME's
My view on Interpath's objuracy, is to go straight for Peyton and fellow Defendant with a Statement of Intent to Claim.......(aSolicitor will know the wording to draw details of Insurers).
Otherwise Interpath will just Stonewall and drag it out too wear claimants down.

Interpath need naming and shaming.
Sharesoc are fully behind this.

Interpath have been nothing but self-serving . Taken £7.4m of our money for dogsbody work. I could , after some training, do their job at £635 an hour with no problems.They have done nothing but promote secrecy and subservience to financial greed. They reflect all that is wrong with this growing two-tier society in the UK. Institutionalised greed. While junior doctors and teachers strike-more due to overwork than pay- they fleece millions from helpless shareholders. I wouldn’t mind so much if they lived up to their marketing promo sales literature, but they don’t. I was provided with 2 English law articles by a top London solicitor and they used their own to deny it, not releasing names of insurers. This was back in July, and they have only promoted the carnage I am witness to in the SAG. Divorces, family rifts, severe depressions and breakdowns. This was not a caveat emptor case where people can say only invest what you can afford to lose! Investing is not like that in reality. These guys led us a merry dance from the beginning to the duplicitous relisting end. Sickening.
Interpath are part of the abuse.
No guarantees of anything, but nowhere near giving up. A lot of us are active. These two Shamen peddling seductive wares deserve justice.

Colin
So have Interpath notified the Insurers of Intent to Claim, without actually divulging who the Insurers are ?
Seems like Interpath need a rocket where the Sun don't shine!

Yes. Now managed by Interpath who obfuscate and over-control to a pathological degree, and even under legal request, will not release name of insurers.

Is what is needed here.
Armistice come in through the backdoor ( acquire Oxford Finance) put together a recovery plan which the Adminstrators accept and get approval from Shareholders. Armistice ( American Hedge Fund) then decide their plan will not work. Seems Armistice did not undertake due diligence before putting forward the plan so are either totally incompetent or extremely devious.
Now Peyton and Stephenson have resigned, leaving 2 Americans and 2 Germans on the board.

Smell a Rat and enormouse Rat?

A Good Journalist should expose exactly what is/has gone on at 4D

Hi, there are some really switched on folks on this board who have followed this company for years. If you haven’t already please consider joining the action group as outlined by RightOn (thank you) many months ago. Your knowledge could be absolutely crucial as the group moves forward.

Here's the link below to Telegram for the shareholder action group. You will need to be subscribed to Telegram before you can join, then copy and go with the link below and you should get in. Let me know here of any problems. In order to have this pass the rules, I have added 5 spaces to the address, which you will have to delete.

Htt ps://t . me / +1ngv2N1p4qZhZDlk

no not me yet. sent my email on 14th march 23.

Hi there,
Has anyone received any sort of reply back from our emails sent to Colin?

Those are good points Porky.

What I have learned going forward is that AIM biotech companies are very high risk - the odds of getting something to work is very low and they burn through cash (by way of dilution) rapidly.

The governance of AIM companies is also poor as we don’t truly know what is happening.

My lesson from all of this is that AIM biotech is not worth the investment, or at the very least you need to be prepared to loose everything.

I was also invested in Reneuron a while back, an AIM pharma company. Luckily for me I bailed out of it before the sp collapsed from around 60p (my investment) to currently 10p.

Anybody new reading this - just be careful with any AIM company.

What this whole debacle regarding 4D tells us is that realistically the valuations that the brokers assign to these AIM plays often bares no resemblance what so ever to realistic company value. Never has it been truer that something is only worth what someone will pay for it.

Parking to one side the atrocious management, cash burn, ten years of development funded by shareholders and wasted cash etc etc etc in terms of actual drug pipeline assets, this business had 14 drug lines, 9 of which at significant advanced stages towards licensing and commercialisation, One of which had recently secured FDA clearance and was on the cusp of a licensing deal. These drug lines were backed and partnered by some of the biggest names in the industry.

When they raised £18m at £1.10 SP investors were being told investing in these drug lines could result in possible cures and help for some of life’s most atrocious illnesses. One drug line alone could be worth £100m plus in licensing. Yet the stark reality is totally different.

The Interpath report on page 4 tells us that 50 large and medium Biotech companies were approached, remember that Merck were even a partner to a drug supporting their Keytruda drug doing $22 billion sales per year, there were 19 financial biotech players and despite some initial interest NONE came through with final offers. Not one. Nobody wanted to bid for ANY of the IP.

We now know that a two bit small Korean biotech has acquired all the rich IP assets for a token fee yet by my very rough calculation there has been over the years north of something like 100m of investors capital to get these drugs to the current stages.

There is no answer to this really and there will be a heck of lot of investors giving fledgling biotech investments a wide birth knowing that not only are the chances of success limited in most cases but even when the outlook is strong, big biotech are no longer paying decent upfront licensing fees, they only really want to pay after everything approved just before commercialisation. If the biotech goes bust in the meantime, they can pick up the IP for a token fee if they want it.

At this rate biotech investment will continue to dry up, perhaps some extra tax breaks or something could help but certainly MMs should be materially reducing placing valuations that’s for sure. Often they are miles apart from what that IP is worth on the open market. The outcome here certainly endorses that point.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08840579/filing-history

Common courtesy and decency tells me the Administrators, who have been payed £4m, should at least inform exactly how assets are/have been sold. I guess they will say shares have been cancelled and therefore no need to inform. However the assets, both tangible and intangible, are under someone's control. Should the Regulator be involved???

Disgusting ?? how can they get away with it

Once again, why have Interpath not announced this and notified Shareholders ?
Financial crime story at it's best!

Looking at CJs Mcap ~$126M , $rev etc, reckon they paid peanuts. Could be wrong, but unlikely

Sickening stuff

Hi, yes I got a reply from Colin within a matter of days from emailing him.

Carve up begins. Bacthera buys 4D’s manufacturing site in Léon

hTTps://legaldealmaker.com/baker-advises-bacthera-of-4d-pharmas-plc-site-acquisition/

Big write up in IC this week. https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/news/2023/03/15/a-4d-lesson-in-early-stage-investing/

Thanks Porky.
I hope you also join.
The directors will know what is on these chatsites, but I can safely say that there is a good case.

The issue you have here is that the administrators obviously take a chunk of ongoing fees and there is nothing to stop Duncan either directly or Via associated companies buying up the assets from them and then selling them onto Merck or whoever further down the line. How hard have they actually tried to sell the assets?

I would hate for Duncan to profit at our expense and i fear this is the reality now. On a positive note administrators can get sued for damages if they do not secure best value for creditors including shareholders.

The stand out issues as i see it are:-
1. The fund was selling down continually, makes you wonder if they knew or had information that us private investors didn't have
2. Duncan was telling us the cash runway was 12 mths when clearly it wasn't and investors were backing him on that basis.
3. It now appears that Duncan was avoiding updating us on the Oxford Finance situation and shareholders remained under the false illusion from the RNS he put out that they had a further 30m of capital available to draw down - when in truth they were actually in breach of covenants and this wasn't likely.

Its the small private investors that get fully shafted in these situations. I would urge all shareholders reading this to contact Colin Lawrence - obviously its a slim chance of recovering anything but the action group is over 200 strong, a solicitor appointed acting for the group and its certainly worth a try.

If you are not willing to write off your losses in defeat:-
Wheels already set in motion.
Send email with confidential sum invested and shareholding.
colin.lawrence@talk21.com
No timewasters, no trolls, no bull**it .
Just part of the 176 -strong SAG.
Total sum invested by all members is large and growing.

I lost 50% in lloyds where there was practically zero upside (It was my early days I liked the divi idea), it's not a small company thing, it's a risk management thing. I went too far in on this, but I coupled that with ignoring the warning signs. The penultimate presentation (I think) he looked so f*cked, I actually thought about selling, but most of the damage had been done, my thought process was 'what's the point, I'd may as well leave it' 3-4 days later it was gone. The financial deals could I have forseen the damage they would cause, probably not.

Well penny shares on the AIM are always high risk per sae, penny biotech plays even more so.

What i find on the AIM is that no matter what DD you do before you invest in a company, you NEVER have all the facts. What they don't say is often more important than what they do tell us and it feels like CEOs can say what they like and not be held accountable.

Nomads are now trying to suggest that for a biotech to be seen as viable and investable it must have greater than a 12 month working capital runway ahead. This would certainly help if it was enforceable but even then there are still risks: the company taking on more cost, paying higher wages, funding being withdrawn.

In the case of 4D, the directors all had a massive pay rise before the collapse and shareholders were told the cash runway was 12 mths. So even if that was enforceable you would still get shafted.

As i see it, if you back these kinds of investments its probably worth a) as best you can ensuring they have enough capital to survive for more than a year and b) Ideally a clear route to break even of costs or ideally into profitability so they are not just reliant of SH money in the future c) only invest what you can afford to lose and d) one that works for me personally is should you double your money sell half so you are in for free. Certainly trade/take some profits money off the table when the going is good e) regularly evaluate if you would still invest today if it was presented to you as a new proposal

But yes, you are right it can be Red or black at best half the time....

Red or black - make your choice.

In all seriousness, we have been funding a research company that even when available in admin, no big pharma came forward with an offer.

As they usually don’t have income streams, the only way to fund these is by dilution.

Anyway a £10k lesson for me.

What happen to DDDD is a lesson for anyone believing in investing in UK so called world class ideas and AIM. It is difficult to accept that AIM regulators bothers about how UK AIM investors money are managed and used. What is also difficult to understand why DDDD ideas could be considered world class and world leading and yet no UK private funding entity and including the UK Government Research funding support system are interested. Is it that only US Hedge Funds sees the potential of DDDD. Hence may have planned the breakup of DDDD and their transfer to the US considering a big US company is involved with the work of DDDD.

Tav. yes HMRC will regard these shares as having some value until the company is completely dissolved which as you say could be months away even a year or so.
Had already written the stock off and would like to use the loss against another gain. Not sure who would want to buy a delisted share that has little or no value.
Had a similar situation with another Bio-pharma a few year ago ( I seem to be a sucker for Bio-pharma's), which was not listed. It went bust, my Accountant used the date of Insolvency to establish the loss, even though it had not fully registered with Companies House. That event was at roughly this time of year.
It will be worthwhile having conversation with my Accountant.

Fair , I have been through similar delistings before and the key issue for cgt purposes is the date At which HMRC deem the shares worthless. Imv this is months away.Until the disposal process has gone much further and the receiver s published accounts the delisted shares could in theory have value. So little chance of HMRC declaring nil value yet . Maybe you could sell your delisted shares somehow and crystallise the loss -ask an accountant would be my view.

The Administrators have delisted the Company which effectively means Shares are worthless, however until Liquidation is completed the company still exists. Have the Administrators been appointed as Liquidators?
Is the company still trading? Have Staff been dismissed?
The company will only cease to exist once a Voluntary or Compulsory Order is confirmed by the Court.
The protocols involved here could be extremely messy, Administrators should make crystal clear exactly how they are proceeding. It is likely they ( Adminsitrators) consider having delisted, ordinary shareholders have been dealt with and are of no consequence, allowing actions in Favour of Creditors( Armistice) to proceed unhindered.
Should Duncan and the BOD have made some statement?
Am raising these issues as from our point of view our investments are dead. However there are likely many of us who wish to use the loss against gains in the Current Tax year ( ends 5th April).
An application to the Court within the next month is necessary.

AIMO, but would welcome any other views that will help cheated Investors.

Good advice fairdealer. I have done self assessments myself for the purpose of carrying capital losses forward but it isn't straightforward and can open a can of worms. I recommend using an accountant.

I am in the process of rationalising my non-ISA portfolio though, with the capital gains changes, and will be moving a number of my holdings into my ISA in the new tax year. The reduced allowances are a wounder and disuade me from investing in my non-ISA account moving forwards

Thank you Fairdealer.
In response to Jonathan, yes my shares were purchased through Barclays smart investor. Ironic as I don’t feel very ‘smart’ now, just very foolish and stupid.
Again thank you. Wishing everyone the best for all who have lost here.

As long as the shares weren't held in a stocks & shares isa, in which case you can't claim.

A Capital loss can be carried forward year on year and used to offset future Capital Gains. For instance lets say a Loss of £50K is established in year 1 then in year 2 a gain of £20k is established then use the current CGT allowance first and then use the difference up to yr 2 gain with some of the established Loss. i.e 20K - 12300 =£7700 whih can be taken from the yr 1 loss. This then leaves £42300 to carry forward, which can be used in subsequent years to reduce CGT liabilty. Remembering to use the annual allowance first before using the residual loss being carried forward.
Be ware the current CGT allowance is £12300 pa which is being progressively reduced by the Chancelor. For year 23/24 the allowance will be £6000 and for yr 24/25 is £3000.
It is always advisable to consult a qualified expert ( Accountant) who will complete and present a Tax Return. You can complete a return yourself, however in my experience HMRC will readily accept a return from a Registered Professional. Doing a return yourself in such situations could lead to questions from the Tax Inspector which for the unanitiated could be puzzling and then Professional help is needed.

Hope this helps, but always keep an eye on the Gov Website as allowances etc do change more often than the ordinary mortal understands.
Best of luck

Thank you to those that have responded and given me some advice. I agree that I have to park this or it will consume me, my dream of retiring early with my husband has gone.
Fair dealer, can you explain further what you mean regarding Capital Gains loss can be carried forward ?
Thank you

hi , does anyone have any insight as to how and when both cfds and shares will be zero as they still showing on both my accounts ?