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to repeat my ealier post:
Neither VLS or Lanzatech meet the criteria as it stands today. Clearly, the criteria could be changed to meet VLS needs, but what i expect to happen is that the awards will be small. Kew and Rika are building smaller scale projects now, that align with the criteria.
XPB: Any particular reason for your expectations, like something factual for example? In any case, why should you be worried - you aren't a shareholder are you?
Your holdings here sorry I must have missed your earlier post
Neither VLS or Lanzatech meet the criteria as it stands today. Clearly, the criteria could be changed to meet VLS needs, but what i expect to happen is that the awards will be small. Kew and Rika are building smaller scale projects now, that align with the criteria.
Progression to stage 2 for VLS may take years. Thats the worry.
Funding won’t be a problem
XPB: I have already emailed ricardo regarding the issue. If Velocys couldn't meet the conditions, why are they still on the shortlist for the award ? From he same web site you quoted:
In October 2019 Rika Biogas Technologies Ltd were awarded a Stage Two grant of £5M, and in December 2019, KEW Projects were awarded a Stage Two grant of £1.5m.
Project Title Lead Organisation Status
Straw to Liquid Biomethane (LBM) Demonstration Plant Rika Biogas Technologies Ltd £5M Grant awarded
Altalto ( Velocys Waste to Jet Fuel Project) Altalto Immingham Ltd Short listed
Sustainable Aviation Fuel From Waste-Based Ethanol LanzaJet UK Limited Short listed
Integrated ATC & F-T Demonstration Plant Kew Projects Limited £1.5m Grant awarded
Velocys’ Altalto waste-to-jet project and Lanzajet’s alcohol-to-jet project continue to develop their project proposals as part of the F4C. The Department for Transport remains committed to the projects and look forward to seeing progression towards Stage Two of the competition.
Thurg. That 'drivel' as you call it, is from the UKGov F4C literature. Suggest you have a read of it and then reconsider your response.
My take on those funding use conditions are that they are mainly aimed at the construction phase. VLS is years away from anything of the sort, so I now believe such funding may not be forthcoming - at least in amounts that will make a difference.
As for PHE. that ship has long since sailed unfortunately.
If he/she/it is telling the truth, XPB does not currently hold any VLS shares.
XPB: Where did this load of unattributed drivel originate and why have you bothered to post it? I am quite sure that Velocys is well aware of the financial requirements and, like us, doesn't need your help. I presume you have a holding in PHE as you seem to be ramping it, although why you should choose to do so on this board is beyond me. Please buy yourself a window-box and stop bothering us with your opinions.
Not answered second question on holdiings
PHE have demonstrated their fully integrated process and are targeting small sized projects in the 10's of millions. VLS have not demonstrated their fully integrated process and are targeting the worlds largest waste to fuels facility in the half billion pound region.
3.99 ask
I hope your efforts to save investors are being used over on the phe board too
Can I ask what your holding is here
Criteria for Stg 2 Funding:
In particular, by Stage Two, the following Stage Two eligibility criteria must be met:
• The applicant must have identified a site,.
• The applicant must have at least Heads of Terms in place with any match funders, although firmer commitments from investors will score more highly in the assessment of Stage Two applications.
• The applicant must have a detailed project cost plan, with detailed engineering design work having been completed where possible.
• The applicant must be able to demonstrate the commercial potential of the technology/process/supply chain to deliver significant quantities of advanced low carbon fuel when delivered at full scale.
• The proposed feedstocks, if not 100% renewable (e.g. Municipal Solid Waste), must demonstrate the environmental benefit of using the feedstocks for fuel production (based on a full consequential lifecycle GHG assessment), compared to the likely alternative destination of the feedstocks.
The following additional criteria should be met in order to achieve the highest available score against these criteria:
• The applicant should have ideally submitted or gained planning permission for use of the site for the intended project
• The applicant should have ideally Heads of Terms in place with a feedstock supplier.
• The applicant should have ideally Heads of Terms in place with an off-take partner.
Use of funding:
Only costs incurred after the date of the acceptance of the final offer of a grant;
• Cost of all purchased goods and services necessary to build and commission the proposed project. This includes the cost of fuel used in the installation and labour up to and including certified acceptance of commissioning17;
• The equipment eligible for grant is the conversion technology, feedstock pre-processing equipment, and monitoring & control equipment.
• Buildings and building work are not eligible except in the following cases;
- Steelwork when it is an integral part of the equipment support structure;
- Excavations for fuel storage.
- Foundations and mounting pads for equipment.
• In retrofit applications, insulated linking pipework with associated calorifiers, pumps and controls to connect to the existing conversion technology will be eligible.
• Remedial work on building fabric will be eligible only to the extent necessary to make good after equipment installation.
• The cost of purchased services for the evaluation of the project and the dissemination of the results.
• Own labour costs, including agreed overheads, but not profit, for construction, commissioning, and project management. These costs should be directly linked to the design, construction, commissioning and evaluation of the equipment contained in the project and auditable as such.
• In this context “own costs” include applicant’s own costs and eligible costs incurred by consortium members and eligible costs incurred by companies connected to any of these.
ISTR - I seem to remember: BoD - Board of Directors : F4C - The F4C was launched on the 27 April 2017 by the Department for Transport (DfT) to promote the development of an advanced low carbon fuels industry within the UK, including supplier capabilities and skills in relevant technologies, while maximising value for money for the taxpayer. Velocys have already received Pt1 funding, Pt 2 funding decision is awaited. See this link:
https://ee.ricardo.com/transport/case-studies/f4c
Fair point, loosely. However, ISTR that two ex-Shell employees currently hold BoD positions at Velocys which rather suggests that the Velocys/Shell relationship is rather more than the "punt" suggested by XPB. To my mind, the key issues are the F4C award and the upcoming Annual Report. As you say, VLS have been running on fumes for a while, but the last 12 months have shown some sign of improvement with both the Japanese and Red Rock deals adding to the coffers. Enormous potential IF it gets the funding. Only time will tell.
Exbatty, 150+ posts this month on a share you don’t own. If that’s not sad I don’t know what is.
Thurgaton: have a look at the incorporation of Altalto Ltd, Altalto Immingham Ltd, and Altalto Immingham Holdings Ltd and you will find no one else but Velocys. BA and Shell are not part of these companies for the moment. The JDA mentioned in the May 12 press release mentions that British Airways and Shell have each been granted an option to take a one-third share in the equity capital of Altalto Limited (a subsidiary of the Company) at a strike price of £1, as a pre-cursor to a full Shareholders’ Agreement for Altalto Limited in due course.
XPB: Why are you surprised? He has stated a viewpoint, and having stated it, has left it to others to decide how to view it. Meanwhile you have added four more posts to your record and said virtually nothing other than blown your own trumpet with no justification for doing so. It you bothered to pause for thought, you might conclude that your approach is nugatory for, as we all know, empty vessels make the most noise.
Sean
Wouldn't it be cool if you could go back to November and pick these up at 1.4p.
Someone on here warned against it.
With a bit of luck in 10 years time people are going to look back and say... imagine if we could go back in time, listen to Expat and not invest in Velocys! ????
Well said Sean. I just cheers'd the air.
I’m surprised you don’t have an issue with it. He’s saying what I keep saying, albeit more eloquently.
Altalto is 100% subsid of VLS. It’s the project company. I believe VLS have other subsids which are probably the development companies.
I suspect Altalto will be split three ways (the £1 option announced of late) with Altalto taking their share in kind. It’ll be a complex set up as there are technology licensing fees to factor in, as well as development fees. These are typical set ups with waste to energy projects.
XPB: I don't have an issue with loosley's post. I do, however, wonder who is raising the funding. The planning application was submitted by Altalto, not Velocys, and they are, as I understand it, in a three way partnership with BA & Shell. It is surely this consortium, not Velocys, that will be approaching the financiers. BTW ISTR that there was a big court case several years ago regarding patents and the Fischer Tropsch process, which Velocys won. This may have a bearing on other competitors who seek to use the process.
I’ll simply refer you all to Loosely’s post below. He’s basically summarised all my points in one succinct entry. The facts laid out below will be what the financiers will look at when they are undertaking their due diligence. And this probably explains why VLS failed to attract any substantial investors over the years and why some,are actually selling up and moving on.