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but regardless, the market is plenty big enough for competitors anyway.
The sunpower warranty reflects the fact that they do not have the IEC certification which, as you state would be required by major companies looking to install the system in the types of sectors and locations targeted by Verditek.
I think Solbian take the underlying cells from high quality suppliers (such as Sunpower) and apply their technology, including incasing in their own polymer to protect the cells. This allows them to pass the certification.
I don’t think SunPower’s own semi-flexible cells are certified.
I don’t think there is another supplier of certified flexible cells who will be in competition with Verditek for the projects they are going after (off-grid diesel to solar conversion). This is the company‘s belief too.
Yes, I also know about Solbian but dismissed them due to their exorbitant prices.
Thanks Feeks and Martyh.
This indicates Solbian just buy their panels from SunPower too, so the same limitations apply as you have already pointed out. It may be too obvious to point out but Paragraf, world leaders in graphene solar technology, chose to work with VDTK not SunPower.
Just catching up on posts.
I don’t think competitors are worth considering unless they have been certified under IEC 61730 and IEC 61215 standards.
Large end users and EPC companies will not consider using anything that isn’t certified.
Verditek’s cells have been tested by TUV. As part the testing they were exposed to 6 months of extreme temperature cycles (-40C to 85C), damp-heat, mechanical-load and hail tests which simulate aggressive ageing and exposure to differing climactic conditions.
One other company that have flexible cells that are certified is Solbian. They are high end cells initially designed for marine application and won’t compete with Verditek on large installations.
Here is their price list.
Their top cells are 9.9 Euro/watt and the cheapest cells are 5.6 Euro/watt.
Verditek are working on selling from 1 Euro/watt.
I’m yet to come across another certified competitor who comes close on price.
So not only do Verditek offer a guarantee of 10 years the TUV certification has tested against hail which sunpowers 2 year warranty does not cover against.
Appears that the Sunpower flexible panels are not so resilient to harsh environments as you would expect.
Verditek panels have been tested against projectiles such as hail. Unlike Sunpower.
Taken from the installation guide.
Certain operating environments are not recommended for SunPower modules and are excluded from the SunPower limited Warranty.
These include but are not limited to flooding, immersion in water or other fluids, contact with liquids with pH greater than 8.5 or less than 6.5, hail and other projectiles,
Aputure. I don't think PH was making the a point that Verditek have the only flexible panels but he was identifying the advantages over traditional panels. This is just one of the USPs.
The comparison between Verditek and other flexible panels is not obvious but clearly Verditek are targetting a niche market which has firstly not be infiltrated by other flexible panels and secondly markets that are very large and would benefit from the advantages of high efficiency, low weight, robust resilient panels which they offer.
Aargh! The smiley face comes up as a ?? Doh! Old school then :-)
Sophie1 - Aside from my typo, I'm not apologising ??, just explaining where I'm coming from in terms of my perspective and trying to ascertain if I'm missing anything as I was put off a bit by the over ebullient Harrison interview; it was the comparison with conventional panels that concerned me, as if VDTK were the only company in the world making flexible panels.
No. That would be it.
I've listened to all the interviews that Parob provided a link to; was there another one I missed?
I am not sure they have missed a trick. More likely focused on a different market.
The potential for the Verditek panels is greater due to the resilience to harsh environments with no loss of efficiciency.
There are many flexible panel manufacturers but the market they are targeting is not really the most lucrative for Verditek.
Verditek are looking to displace diesel power generation. This will come under tight regulation as it is a heavy polluter. Often, these environments are off grid and very harsh i.e low temp or high temp plus dust or snow etc.
Verditek have proven and certified their panels in these environments and the type of customers they are attracting because of the testing and certification require the certification to be in place.
They have a small capacity but have realised the potential of the product and the CEO has made it a priority to increase this immediately.
Have you listened to the interview posted in here and ADVFN ? Well worth a listening not.
The graphene panels has huge potential but is certainly not priced in at all yet.
As I said, there are much better informed posters than me on here. You may pick up some further clarification from them once they rejoin the board over the weekend.
apature, don’t apologise. Those of us that have been invested here for a while have become very excited at the potential and I expect we get a little defensive at times.
Always good to have our views questioned time and time again. Keeps us focused on why we are invested.
Forgot to mention, the 25% is in relation to the flexible panel, just, as I said before, the cell itself, not the module as Sunpower use the same mono crystalline cell; it says so on the link I previously enclosed. They don't state the module or panel efficiency but as you say, probably around 22%.
No wish to discredit, I don't do that. When I'm investing my hard earned I don't want my desire for clean tech companies to succeed to blind me from any potential issues. As I've only just come across this company after a sizeable increase in it's value I'm trying to play catch-up when the market is closed. Many people on here will have spent far longer researching this company so just trying to get a handle on it. I guess I'm perplexed at why existing solar companies have seemingly missed a trick.
Apurture. We all make typo's. Don't worry about it.
All fingers and thumbs me.
Verditek are not in the business of selling one panel and installing it.
The warranty is different because the verditek product has been tested to destruction. This has included resistance to impact from extreme hail, low temperature and high temperature usage over prolonged periods of time.
If the Sunpower or any other product could come close then they would have the same certification.
The 25% efficiency you mention is not in relation to the flexible panel but a traditional solar system. The flexible panels claim to achieve 22% efficiency (80% after 5 years) maximum.
Can sunpower or any other manufacture a flexible panel in camouflage ? Or do they just produce standard rows of 4 x 12 or 6 x 8s in black ?
You must try much harder if you wish to discredit this company and their current product ?
Are you trying to convince yourself to invest and looking to find the negatives? This is understandable.
To be honest I did the same. You have to do your own research.
This is not meant to be argumentative. There are several other well informed posters that can respond much better then me.
Just noticed the typo, not VRDT, but should be VDTK.
As I said, I don't know why the warranty is different; see my earlier comment; I have sent an email to VRDT so will report back if they explain anything of interest.
I'm not a Sunpower reseller but if you look online I'm sure you'll be able to find the cost of the 170W unit and work out the cost/m2 of their unit. £1.50/W sounds competitive though is that just for one 275W panel or 1kW worth?
Yes, the payback is very short for military applications.
I've contacted EAV and they are impressed with the responsiveness of Verditek; that could be another reason why Verditek are making headway; more adaptable to startups and SMEs and in EAVs case dealing with another UK company.
Haha. The e-cargo bike is encouraging. Yes, great addition to the E-cargo bike to be able to have flexible solar as an add on. I expect it will be a no brained for those order the e-cargo bike.
The real money will be made in providing Verditek customers with the TUV certified product at a cost of £1.5 per watt installled. Possibly a little more for the most remote and harsh environments or this panels that need a camouflage design.
Out of interest, what is the cost w/m2 of the sunpower system ?
That warranty is 5 year power (20 year with Verditek) and 2 year product (10 year verditek)
Miles off unfortunately. If I was buying for off grid oil and gas (multi Gw market ) or Mining or Marine or Agriculture or refrigerated transportation i would want to know that I could rely on my product for a little longer than 2 years.
What is the payback period for Sunpower products ?
Case studies have shown that for refrigerated vehicles the payback is less than 2 years (diesel fuel savings). For remote locations such as this for military and security applications where the cost off diesel can be as much as $200 per litre with transportation, the payback and safety aspect of the verditek product is considerably more beneficial.
Sunpower MCap is $1.32bn
Verditek is £27m
Bananaman2 - I see that the new CEO is a good salesman as well as other members of the team but that didn't answer my question in terms of how the product sufficiently differentiates itself. Perhaps it's the TUV testing and the custom size? I also noticed that the company are trialling with an e-cargobike company which is encouraging.
You were way off with the size and efficiency of Sunpower's panels though. They are 5.46ft by 1.82 feet. Similar weight too. They also use 25% efficiency cells so on a module basis they will still have a pretty high efficiency. If VDTK use their cells then they should have the same efficiency. When you build larger panels, the module efficiency usually increases, not decreases.
Link for the Sunpower panels: https://us.sunpower.com/sites/default/files/sunpower-flexible-panel-170w-4x12_0.pdf
I will add that the 170w panels are massive at 6ft x 8ft.
Can't find the efficiency but they certainly are nowhere near Verditek flexible panels for W/m2.