London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East and have access to Premium Chat. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
If you haven’t noticed, National Grid have been upgrading the gas distribution network for a number of years in preparation for a switch to a Nat gas/Hydrogen mix and a possible pure Hydrogen switch.
Using a gas mixture that includes Hydrogen is nothing new in this country, Town gas that was previously used prior to the switch to Natural gas comprised of a mixture of both Hydrogen and Carbon monoxide.
There has been Hydrogen production for many years in the UK. It is transported daily across our road network system in high pressure trailers and for many years bulk storage occurred in salt caverns on Teeside.
The cities of Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool are at the forefront of research into Hydrogen usage, both industrial and domestic.
The natural gas grid could provide the key to unlock the long talked-about potential of the hydrogen economy says Henri Winand.
17th March 2016 by Networks
But extraction from the grid is not strictly necessary either. Hydrogen can be used to bulk out natural gas and can be burned along with it at a power station. Hydrogen is carbon free, therefore emissions at that plant will be lower and, because it burns at a higher temperature, the gas turbine runs hotter and is therefore more efficient.
One of the key elements with NG is Hydrogen.
The truth is, the exact composition of natural gas is different depending on the location. Each well has a different gas composition and different amounts of each component. Natural gas is a naturally occurring mixture or premixed combustion. Natural gas is a combustible mixture of hydrocarbon gases. What is a hydrocarbon you ask? A hydrocarbon is an organic compound of hydrogen and carbon called petroleum. While natural gas is formed primarily of methane, it also includes ethane, propane, butane, and pentane. Below, you can see a typical composition of natural gas.
When there is almost pure methane, natural gas is considered “dry” gas. When the heavier hydrocarbons are present, the gas is considered “wet.” The gas that we get as consumers is made up of almost entirely pure methane. Yes, natural gas is already composed of mostly methane but the gas still must go through processing to remove the hydrocarbons before it reached the consumer. This means that the ethane, propane, butane, and pentanes must be removed. However just because these elements are removed, this does not mean that they are worthless and wasteful.
Methane CH4 60-90%
Ethane ? C2H6 0-20%
Propane C3H8 0-20%
Butane C4H10 0-20%
H4 = 4 Atoms to 1 of carbon
Hydrogen would be simply added to the Methane mixture in varying % close to the point of use.
Heides ministry of fear she will have us voting for the green party next lol the only difference between her and Greta is 10 stone and About 40 years
I have never read as much nonsense, Hydrogen through the gas mains indeed, I'm emigrating if that happens.
The way to get Hydrogen into our homes and vehicles is through the water and electricity supplies and the use of an Electrolizer at the point of use. The Nikola Motor Company already have prototype hydrogen filling stations operating in California and the only supply lines are water and three phase electricity, Hydrogen travels through a pipe between the "pump" and the vehicle and nowhere else using Sparkless Metal, a British world patent of many years standing, for the connectors. The same is doable for a heating boiler.
Blow your house up - honestly.
Surprised you fill your cars up.
Do you think this will not be tested or will this be the next thing to fracking ..hydrogen. !??
Get a grip.
I think some of you have your head in the sand where Hydrogen is concerned.
David said it turns him on and it does me too.
It will help to lower our carbon emissions. I am surprised our unbiased journalist never reports on it. MA seemed to like her. Odd.
I can't see hydrogen being used in the existing pipe infrastructure in concentrations greater than a few percent. Upgrading the grid would be required, hydrogen causes problems with some pipework, and is a very slippery gas so connections would also need review.
If there is a test bed to be developed this year this should give us a better perspective on the likely issues.
Absolutely Right Mirasol. Hydrogen is highly explosive in any concentration above 4%. The potential destruction of residential properties and the people within them would be prohibitive using this gas, not to mention large offices etc within cities.
Hydrogen or traditional gas/oil. UJO will not be too bothered, WN is going to be huge.
and of course geothermal......
Surrounded by Hydrogen initiatives up and down the Uk and worldwide.
H2H Saltend and Keadby.
"Are they going to force every property to switch to hydrogen?"
probably yes - as they did with N Sea gas & Algerian gas in the early '60s
But if you think the Provisional Gas Board house explosions are bad just wait till a house full of Hydrogen goes up................
Are they going to force every car to electric ? No , not to begin with. But you bet eventually everyone will have one, and for cheaper than the first lot produced.
Hydrogen will play a vital role in achieving the government’s commitment of eliminating the UK’s contribution to climate change. And we all know one way of making Hydrogen, from Gas.
Am I wrong about NG boilers burning anything above 20% mixture of Hydrogen in the NG?
Are you talking about a full switch to Hydrogen?
Are they going to force every property to switch to hydrogen?
Are they banning sales of NG boilers to properties in that limited geography?
Do you really think that Boris will push Hydrogen to all as a mandate?
Stop over-playing the take up of Hydrogen over NG!
Commission your infrastructure. Find some pipelines like a 2nd hand car. One careful owner. Storage sites 200 years worth of UK emissions. Then establish some full chain infrastructure. A highway ready to roll to help support the rapid decarbonisation of Grangemouth, Humberside Teeside etc.
Natural Gas to Hydrogen... Few hours on the beach the hydrogen to market and CO2 only on beach couple of hours. Feed it to the whole of the UK.
Pipeline studies already taken place. Infrastructure there. All components there. A new well offshore to establish a system to receive other CO2.
Lots of options. Connect all the industrial plants.
Come on you lot. Dig deeper.
Sorry. Me bad. A Hydrogen boiler can burn both NG and Hydrogen or a mixture of the two. Dumbo mistake here.
When I stated that you cannot mix NG with Hydrogen, it was in the context of deliver to a pure hydrogen boiler. Can a hydrogen boiler wok off a mix of 80% NG and 20% Hydrogen? The answer is "good luck with your boiler warranty with that one". Same is also true with existing NG boilers, you add hydrogen into the mix and you'll have warranty issues galore. Some studies have suggested a range of 5% to 20% mix of Hydrogen can be accommodated in NG boilers, but what do the manufacturers say, after all, a study is just a study.
There are further issues with mixing Hydrogen with NG in a national pipeline, it is unproven as to how they can regulate and control the mixture.
The environmental benefits are there for all to see, should the regulators and industry sign-off on mixing Hydrogen with NG. If not, then I doubt that you will see Hydrogen mixed in with NG this side of 2030.
Heid, NG will still be the primary heating gas for the next 40 years. However the modern plastic pipe system can cope with increasing amounts of hydrogen from 20% to 40% when injected close to the point of use, or used in Combined Cycle Central Power Generating system.
The real reality is splitting of water via Micro Nuclear generators to produce Hydrogen for short term storage or injection into existing gas delivery systems making NG last long into the future.
Net Zero DEPENDs on Nuclear Energy Generation otherwise the costs do not compute. Once that is in place NG is easily synthesised as a storable battery fuel. Which Hydrocarbon are now in reality.
Thing is, how will they deliver the hydrogen to your property? There's only one infrastructure setup to deliver gas to the property at present, and it isn't for hydrogen. You cannot mix hydrogen with conventional gas. So either they have to build a brand new gas network, or switch everyone over. So that leaves but one choice, having your own hydrogen storage on premise with regular deliveries. Costs for that will put people off the conversion, so unless Boris starts a scheme to cover the costs, then regular Joe is not going to be interested.
Net result. You are not gonna seen hydrogen boilers take off any time soon. Conventional gas boilers will outsell them 100:1 or more.
Hydrogen will become a proposition for the larger players, but that's commercial use, not domestic.
Don't underestimate the importance though, as hydrogen as a fuel for vehicles is very much real and now.
Everything about to kick off
Hold fast :-)
Imagine when my boiler man comes to give me a service...
" Madam, have you heard of a hydrogen boiler?"