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Ha. Made an error with my Li calc. I was remembering approx 10kg of Lithium in an average EV battery pack, that's correct. But that certainly does not translate to 20kg of Lithium Carbonate more like 60kg, costing $1.8k.
With that even small savings on pack size arising from using PM motors are very beneficial.
Hi Gaias, You are correct in that the average EV has 1-1.5kg of magnets, but miss the fact that those magnets only contain about 30-35% NdPr. So the demand is only 300-500gms per motor. At current SMM a marginal cost of about $40-60, The efficiency savings is between 10-20%; so you are spot on the savings in Li batteries alone more than makes up for the extra RE costs.
With wind I see induction as in large part moving to becoming yesterday's technology.. apart from the potential for superconductors. It has long way to go but in one area it may soon have the advantage. Floating offshore wind.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/energies/energies-14-01386/article_deploy/energies-14-01386.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjco9_47Nb0AhWLi1wKHSUOAgIQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2HxDEhwIYDZ3kI1Oy4gulT
Or fist hit " Direct drive pmsg scsg floating wind turbine " search.
For European wind energy needs there is little concern as there are large untapped areas of sea shallower than 50m, eg dogger Bank a b and c 3.6gw covers only 20% of the bank.
Lithium's relentless rise continues
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
This retains the pressure on OEMs to stick with PM in EV motors as one can achieve higher power/range and reduce battery size. From memory some av 20kg of Li2CO3eq per EV, cost ~$650 now. For Nd some 1 to 1.5kg of motor magnets needing around half that in NdPrOx, so cost ~$90 per EV today.
Sad to say but you are all right. Depends on what motor configuration and what Torque/Load etc characteristics you desire. What nobody denies is that a PM motor is by far the more efficient solution all be it at a slightly increased cost.
Which is where Supply / Demand economics come into play, as long as supply is lower than demand the economics will find the price level that maximises producers profit ~ a situation that is forecast to be the norm for at least the next ten years.
But we have digressed, If I remember correctly Dumbo was talking about "Free energy"
Hi Mumbles, as per my correction, the rotor doesn't need an electrical input. Only the stator require an electrical input in an induction motor. Statement from wiki "An induction motor or asynchronous motor is an AC electric motor in which the electric current in the rotor needed to produce torque is obtained by electromagnetic induction from the magnetic field of the stator winding.[1] An induction motor can therefore be made without electrical connections to the rotor."
Good morning DP, not quite right, but not far off. And induction motor requires power to both the stator and the rotor, whereas a PM magnetic generates its own induction field. So only needs power to one side. Horizonte have produced quite a good paper, which obviously promotes their own products but otherwise describes the difference between the two types of electric motor. https://www.horizontechnology.biz/blog/induction-vs-permanent-magnet-motor-efficiency-auto-electrification
Don’t even think of trying stand up if that’s the best you can do sitting down.
Oh, opening my advent calendar The first was Dumbpunter saying that it is not possible that Santa lives in Lapland, the second was Charles H say that the elves could not make all those toys in time and on the third one so far Theorist was questioning how reindeer could fly.
So the three wise men journeyed to Saltend where a star arose, and there was peace across the rare earth
So I am looking forward to many more fun advent windows opening before falling into Christmas.
Hi ManOnFire, The cooker and the induction motor rely on the same physics, ie magnetic induction. The reason why the cooker only work with pots made from certain metals is that whatever metal is used to make the pot must have ferromagnetic properties. Ideal metal is iron. Aluminium is not ferromagnetic so the cooker induction effect will not work with aluminium pots.
Sorry, let me correct myself. An induction motor only require input energy to the stator windings, which in turn induces a voltage into the armature windings which does not require an input. Hence induction motor. Whereas with a permanent magnet motor, energy is input into the armature. So, both types of motors only require 1 input energy, but to different part of the motor. So, it is possible that the same amount of energy required to produce 1N of force could be the same for both motors since each have only 1 input. So you would have to look at other features of the motor to see which one consume less energy.
Hi Dumbpunter, I now understand the point you are making. It's just that you used the wrong terminology when you said that a permanent magnet provides power. I would have said that a permanent magnet motor only require input energy to the armature windings, whereas an induction motor require energy to be applied to both the stator windings, and the armature windings to achieve the same mechanical output force, all other things being equal. ie you would have to make assumptions regarding the magnetic field strength, flux density, cross section area of the armature windings etc.
Apologies in advance for not being technical however i use Miele induction cooktops…..zone free, quite cool
pardon the pun, that will only work if certain metals are used for magnetic conduction to create energy ie. heat.
Is this not similar ie.
Magnets equal energy??
Silly comparison, I know, apologies again.
With all due respect Dumbputer, a permanent magnet doesn't provide power. It provides a magnetic field which can be measured in terms of flux, & flux density. If I recall correctly, a motor consist of a stator winding and an armature winding. In a permanent magnet motor, current is fed to the armature which produces a magnetic field which interact with the magnetic field of the permanent magnet which cause the armature to rotate, thereby converting electrical energy into mechanical energy, ie motion. With an induction motor, electrical energy is fed to the stator winding which creates a magnetic field. That magnetic field induce a voltage in the armature winding which cause a current to flow which produces a magnetic field which then interact with the stator magnetic field which cause the armature to rotate. Again, electrical energy converted to motion. The power fed to the induction motor is in the for of alternating voltage and current. No power produced by the permanent magnet, and the electrical energy applied to the motor isn't free.
Dumbo, If you don't know, you should not be here.
Stop trying to squirm your way out of it ~ Induction motors DO NOT produce "Free Energy"
We are all waiting for todays comic relief :
But I must apologise, yes there are sources of free energy ~ it is called the Sun, (and moon) and manifests itself as Solar, Wind and Tidal energy. But you can still put your Induction motors into the Lonny Bin.