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Point taken PVX233, but we did have relevance!
Unfortunately arguments can drag on when you have two stubborn people both determined that they are right. However, this could have been resolved very quickly if all parties had validated their old trades against the disputed charts.
Had I not persevered you would have still been under the misapprehension that POG's sp had risen fourfold, as in your earlier comment below.
"But I agree which is why POG as you say is X4 off the lows"
Kenji,
I think the thread took a political turn last Friday.
I also think 40 posts on where the price was 5 years ago is a pointless exercise and makes the term 'long winded' a bit of a joke in comparison for what it's worth...
" Migration is nothing to do with POG. "
I fully agree with you PVX233, but if you feel that way, why pen two long winded posts on the subject?
I am very sorry if I bored you with my posts about the sp in Dec 2014, but I believe it was pertinent to point out that POG's sp has only risen by twofold rather than fourfold since the RI. History and past performance pays an important part in researching which companies to invest in imo, but perhaps not so much for you.
I agree KRSS the thread has become bogged down in irrelevances. Who cares what the price was years ago. Migration is nothing to do with POG. Hopefully, some decent posts will help everyone make money...
Immigration? UK can encourage immigration from Countries or Communities which like to spend, best way to look at it is the Communities which built the restaurants and like to spend and eat out. Because spending increases the cash injection into the system and increases money circulation and stingy ones are not good at all. Looks like Labour or Conservatives are going to allow some level of immigration.
For example, people in India hoard cash a lot in their homes, when Indian Government tried to clamp down on them. there were queues outside banks for months to exchange the currency and Country was literally paralysed.
enough talk on other things, lets talk sometimes about POG as well, anyone expecting any news tomorrow
If a whole family comes in with kids then immediately through education, health needs and benefit even if one of the adults does work their tax contributions doesn't even scratch the costs to the state. We have millions who do not work as it is due to attitude, laziness or just the plain fact that when working legit then they lose the biggest benefit of all Housing Benefit. Another issue: I worked special needs for 20 years and can tell you that supporting adults with learning disabilities cost an absolute fortune. I priced up the care and support for two mentally disabled women living in a 3 bed flat in Grove Park Camberwell SE London. £400 k per year!!!!!
So taking these costs into account the Pakistani community alone which represents something like 6% of the population account for over 30% of all babies born with learning disabilities due to first cousin marriages https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-among-children.html
Lol, at least communists and capitalists are on one page on one thing, how to get best out of labour class? That’s why divine perspective says, you will only find refuge in One God
We need the labour Lawence13 .... each kid will go on to work, generating at an average wage of 25k a year some 2.3 million, for the economy. Unless you assume they won't work, but there's no evidence of that I'm afraid. Economically, large numbers of labour isn't bad. Germany has benefitted hugely from Merkel's migration policy. Japan and China are changing their policies to encourage migration and population growth. The economic argument is clear cut. The social issue is more complicated I admit as there is an inherent dislike of difference unfortunately .
We also export our aged to Europe saving millions in heath care costs.
The UK has pretty much full employment which is why wage growth is accelerating. I don't see migration as an issue, which is why Conservative policies is to allow more migration post Brexit in fact.
EU membership is more about the economics of the Euro policies etc. than migration. Germany has never complained about EU migration for example, or any other country I can recall. They don't like external EU migration, but that's another issue...
Rubbish: If someone comes to the UK with several kids whose education alone runs into 9k per kid and add onto that healthcare and benefits, no way in a zillion years is enough put in for what is taken out. And that is those who actually work !!!!!!!
Freedom of movement is great for our economy. I disagree that migrants are a drain. They contribute hugely. If you look at China, Japan and Germany they are in huge need of youth migration and workers. Where I don't agree is that the EU is necessary economically. 80% of our economy is services. The single market excludes services. If you want to sell insurance in Germany you need to set up a German company. So what's left are only goods, which the EU comprises a diminishing percentage.
If the EU was a great model why do you have 40% youth unemployment in Spain and Italy? Suicide rates are running at an alarming rate in Greece due to EU economic demands.
It all comes down to good businesses not geographical agreements. Whatever country can innovate and sell will be successful. This doesn't depend on trade agreements.
I was talking to an Australian the other week and he was saying it was a mistake to leave the EU. I said, so would Australia join an equivalent in Asia with China, Japan and Indo-china. Giving up the Australian dollar and allowing its laws to be decided by a non-Australian court and allowing freedom of movement. Can you guess his answer? Ask the Canadians the same question or the Japanese?
Unfortunately the EU is a failed economic project. But it's a great social experiment and probably the future for mankind.
The euro is a disaster though and the tensions within the system will destroy it within 10 years or so. Billions of euros in German banks. The market smells the risks...
I dont really want to go there Lawrence13, but we have a lot of people coming from Europe into our country either not working ( and using facilities like the NHS and getting money from our government to live here, and others taking jobs from UK PEOPLE. I have said for a long time I have no problem whatsoever in qualified people like doctors nurses etc coming to this company, but people with no money, no prospects, and no aims taking jobs that could be done by UK people is crazy. Anyway thats the lot for me about this subject as this is a POG board, So sorry for replying.
NHS is dying simply because too many use it who haven't or don't contribute. I believe a normal birth is just over £16k with just the delivery costing 9k. How many people giving birth pay NI ?
Yes Siemans is German, and has swallowed a number of large quality UK companies. There is a Large Siemans next to where I live ( which took over Parsons ) and a large workplace next to where I live. I spoke to a couple of employees on Friday, they said they had no concerns about Brexit, and had been advised my management that it was " business as usual ".
Sorry for confusion Kenj.
Brexit
Er, isn't Siemans German Rusty ?!?
Fair enough Rusty - just one thing my point about the NHS was more about recruitment, my wife tells me fellow EU citizens are leaving in their droves, even bigger problem in the elderly care sector.
By the way, I voted remain, only because I live in the North East of England and work and live next to people who work in Nissan. Then the people of the nearest largest town "Sunderland " voted to leave.
I am sick and tired of brexit. The country voted to leave. So we should LEAVE, no more referendums no second chances, we have had the vote. If they dont stick to it, in future whenever there is a referendum, and we dont like it we should ask for another one. Ridiculous. !!!!! My views only.
shedulike There is a lot of speculation there, the economy will shrinK, How do you know ?? PEOPLE CANT GET STAFF, THERE ARE MILLIONS ON THE DOLE THEY NEED TO LOOK FURTHER AFIELD, Too many negatives, this company was GREAT once, with coalmining, shipbuilding a thriving steel industry, brilliant manufacturing, a number of british car manufacturers, leaders in the banking industry, British Airways, British Aerospace, Rolls Royce, Parsons, Siemens etc etc, Maybe, Just maybe we have to go back to what we used to do best, which was do it ourselves instead of importing everything and get more people back into work paying taxes instead of creaming it off the state and the extra recenue would help fix the NHS, Which in my opinion only, isnt broken, it just needs fixing.
Blimey - nothing like throwing another hand grenade out there C of E!! :) Pointless voting where I live whatever your politics is which is annoying because we should be in Stroud where every vote matters but we got gerrymandered into Cotswold years ago. Brexit is lunacy in my opinion, I know of one manufacturing business that could go under due to the origin of raw materials complications alone, another already in liquidation due to the costs of having to move a warehouse to Bulgaria as they won't be able to get the staff after Brexit. My wife works in the NHS, where do you start on that one? People didn't really vote on those issues - terrible campaign by Remain - they didn't even get the big simple ideas out there like peace in Europe. People just hate Brussells and MEP's and blame the country's problems on it which is understandable. The terrible thing is the economy will contract and guess who that's going to hurt? I'll give you a clue, it won't be Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage of Jacob Rees-Mogg.
Always voted labour but Brexit this time.
Wish I never said anything :)
Just pleased everyone finally agreed with me lol. Hey I could be wrong I am but human, but then again am I not right in saying with the adjustment it was only worth 2odd pence regardless of if you could buy them or not? Please don’t answer ;)
Have a lovely weekend everyone, last chance to hit the shops before the Christmas madness.
Are we all at least in agreement that POG is worth holding? Over the past year the only thing that’s rattled me was when Kenges Rakishev sold his 22%. For a second I thought wow Kenj owned 22% :)
Quick poll who is voting:
1 Conservative
2 Labour
3 Liberal
4 Green
5 Brexit or would if they could
6 Monster Raving Loony Party
7 Ex MP’s that think they stand a chance outside of a main party
8 The kebab shop owner who is standing for no apparent reason.
RB, I agree that it is difficult to get accurate historical data. Anybody know of a good, accurate source?
"I have only too vivid memories of the sp hovering around 12.5p in dec '14 when the "nil paid rights' were trading at around 0.5p"
Your memory may be vivid, but I think that you got you dates a bit wrong RetiredBanker.
The RI terms were not finalised until 2nd Feb 2015, and the Ex Rights shares were not issued until 27th Feb.
I totally agree we should now look to the future not the past , there are not many here that would of made money in the past , as ive said before ive written off those losses and any rise now will be a bonus . So anyone know when we can expect any news ?
Folks _ I think we should call time-out on this topic.
If CofE and others wish to continue in the belief that POG has risen 4x then let them, I know that is not the case.
What this does illustrate to me, is how easily we are all swayed by pseudo scientific data retrospectively and how difficult it is to obtain factually correct data in this so-called glorious digital age. I'm comfortable in myself knowing that the Yahoo Finance & HL data has been manipulated and that the LSE historic chart accords much better with my own recollections.
For those interested here is a headline from City am newspaper when the RI was first announced in Dec '14 ... the share price dropped on that day to 11.25p
https://www.cityam.com/petropavlovsk-shares-plunge-firm-reveals-plan-raise-235m/
I have only too vivid memories of the sp hovering around 12.5p in dec '14 when the "nil paid rights' were trading at around 0.5p
i.e sp old = sp new (5p) + 15.7 x 0.5p. I do also recall that for a few days around Xmas this old sp tanked to 5p (i.e the nil paid were deemed worthless) before rising back to around the 15p mark. It was also during that week that one of our old regular contributors Paulhunt took the ballsiest decision ever and bought 650k shares @ 5p only to sell a week later @ c15p ... recouping most / all of his losses and getting the hell out of dodge ! Of course Paul would have doubled his money had he stuck with POG from ri to now ... but he would also have had to find over 1/2million quid to buy his rights !!!