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Hi Kenj, I disagree with you on one thing. I won't label the new board as crooks............. Yet. I think its too early in their tenure to do that. They have a lot of things to sort, and this isn't like a smart car driving down the road, its now a juggernaut, and there are a lot of bits and pieces to it. There are a lot of things to sort, starting with the investigation into past practices, they were very late in being able to appoint an auditor, I don't think you can really blame them for that. We have a bond issue that needs to be looked at as the maturity date is approaching fast, and we have results that are due, along with a boardroom coup, and things such as the proposed sale of IRC, . My opinion only. WHICH PERSONALLY, i HOPE DOES NOT GO THROUGH AS THE PRICE IS TOO LOW. Then there is TEMI, Where we have already paid a deposit what will happen to that. I have already stated it will be very interesting to see the way they present the results. The way the results were presented previously was always shrouded in mystery. I still don't yet agree with the conspiracy theory that Peter and Pavel were crooks, but I do not believe they always told the full truth. It was like giving us some information but also withholding some. Time will tell.
"I just wanted to remind them what crooked really looks like. "
Well I hope you are right UpDownFlat. But, for my money the new board look like a far bigger bunch of crooks than the old one. This could be such a great company with decent management, but unfortunately it is continually being fought over by Russian oligarchs and spivs.
Updown flat, I have been invested in Pog for over a decade now, and have seen the company nearly hit the FTSE 100 tottering on the brink of bankruptcy, then staging a recovery. For years I have questioned things and watched a people come on this board thinking they know it all. The reality is, the company has stumbled through, borrowing money, often at high rates and eventually completed what should be the jewel in the crown the pox hub. I have said for years expect the unexpected, there are so many twists and turns and so many questions that remain unanswered. It will be very interesting to see what is unearthed, if anything from the investigation. It will also be interesting to see whether the proposed sale of IRC goes through, as the longer it does not, and the longer the iron ore price stays high and if the Amur bridge is ever actually completed then they might even repay the debts and start making real profit and become a saleable asset. And then there is the sage of TEMI. All gone quiet on that score.
Kenj,
If you look in other payables the advances are there. This means POG do not have to hit to the P&L. The ratios won’t look as good as they could but it still means they were burning more cash then they implied. I am completely in agreement we don’t want to rehash this; I bring it up purely because we have other people on this board (Not you or Rusty) complaining about "jumping over the turnstiles" and I just wanted to remind them what crooked really looks like. I actually feel very positive about POGS future and our future rewards.
UDF,
I could not agree more with what S&P called it, but a they are a bit slow off the mark.
I called this out in May. Perhaps they should read this board.
29th May
"I am still in the dark about this "US$16.0 million interest paid in relation to advance payments from Gazprombank and Sberbank." At the end of the day, an advance payment is just another name for a loan, so why is this $16m of interest payments not explained better?"
30th May
"ie; they pay us $200m at 8%PA, and a year later we return the $200m in gold and pay the $16m interest. I don't see that this is any difference to a loan, but it was not listed as a debt."
Rusty,
I agree with your statement that the interims will be interesting reading. I think they will show net debt around $700m. There is an issue here, what did they spend this money on. Did it cover loses? I think since AISC is around $1050 and Gold didn’t go much below that, this was spent on interest for the $500m bonds that the company couldn’t afford to pay and was slowly accumulating. Therefore, I contend that if it had not been for the price of Gold it would have been bankrupt by 2022. And management knew that and therefore made false statements.
Kenj,
that’s what the S&P said when they downgrade the bond rating last week. They said “we call it debt”, and I would imagine everyone else in the world would call it debt too. Thankfully the high gold prices will mean that this can be repaid by year end.
My whole point is that this just materialised. In any medium sized company, if $180m of debt just materialises, the management team would be gone.
UDF,
Not sure where you got your $180m and $121m figures from!
Are you referring to this, from the 2019 Annual Results?
"(d) Including an aggregate of US$187.4 million advance payments received from Gazprombank and Sberbank outstanding as at 31 December 2019. Advance payments are to be settled against physical delivery of gold produced by the Group in regular intervals over the period of up to twelve months from the reporting date based on the sales price prevailing at delivery that is determined with reference to LBMA fixing.
(e) Including US$16.0 million interest paid in relation to advance payments from Gazprombank and Sberbank.
This was discussed in May of this year and the general consensus was that this payment was believed to be for advancing POG money to purchase concentrate for the POX Hub.
The previous year US$7.2 million of interest on prepayments on gold sale agreements had been made. As far as we know this payment was for the Bridging loans provided to IRC by Gazprombank.
None of these cash advances (loans) were shown as debt in POG's accounts.
UpdownFlat, again you post without any real substance. I know that some of that money was used to pay to IRC, I also know they paid for that privilege so if the amount they pay us, is less than what we pay gazprombank why is that an issue. It was quite clear from some posters who thought we were rolling in cash. In all the time I have been invested, we have never been rolling in cash, because the 2ps always found something to spend it on. The question I pose, ( and I don't know the answer is ) what was the rest of the money used for ??? Gazprombank were never going to pre-pay for gold without there being something in it for them. I believe I questioned this at the time as I also questioned the Temi deal which seems to have gone very quiet. I alsqueried why we were paying for 25% of something to someone who was unknown, Pavel later gave his name out. This company has always been clouded with secrecy and I have openly questioned it, even in the way they reported things. Even an accountant could not decipher the way the reports were announced including there constant use of "net debt" rather than saying this is our debt and this is what we have in cash. I have never at any time suggested there were wrongdoings, even though others have, but what I have asked for on numerous occasions is clarity. The next set of results and they way in which they are presented will make very interesting reading, it will also be very interesting to see if there is an announcement on IRC and TEMI.
Rusty,
I looked at the RNS historically and you are correct, this is just dilution due to others converting. They have the same absolute number of shares.
On the $180M (Dec 19, $121M June 20) , prepaid gold /overdraft/debt, this really seems like it was a surprise to everyone, including the ratings agencies. Personally, I compare these historic things vs the crime of jumping over a turnstile (That’s why he needed athletes who could do the hurdles) to retrieve the company’s data. Shareholders might want to think about who they support.
UDF..... Now go stand in the corner of the room and dont turn around or speak unless youre told otherwise :D
I actually like UDFs posts as the posts always question the bullish longs.... Good on him or her for that matter!!!
Still bobbing around the 28p area.... Umpf!
Updownflat before you start talking about things, ensure you know the answer. I believe the money for the presold gold was used to lend to IRC, We later got it back with interest, I dont know the answer about £180m worth of debt on pre-sold gold , in fact I am not aware of what you are talking about, the accounts have never showed this, so please show where you got this information and what you are talking about |??
"As for the RNS there is nothing saying there has been any sale, and I believe its because of other conversions there are now more shares in issue, so the percentage owned has dropped."
Well done Rusty, I did not spot it myself, but I think that you are spot on!
At that rate you would have been stopped out in 2022, when the bonds became due and the assets would have been restructured and gone to the Amur region.
What about the £180m worth of debt on pre-sold gold, when where you first aware of that ?
Updown flat when did Pavel give away a quarter of the company foe $125m if you are talking about the convertable bonds, thats not correct as there were already convertable bonds outstanding at $100m the conversion price was also considerably lower than the issue of the new bonds. I do question why we added another $25m, but the bondholders were already in control and the conversion price on the new bonds was well above the initial conversion price.
As for the RNS there is nothing saying there has been any sale, and I believe its because of other conversions there are now more shares in issue, so the percentage owned has dropped.
Remember, just twelve months ago Pavel gave away 1/4 of the company for $125m. And then six months later he paid $13+$57 for a 25% stake in a piece of land (Which I can’t understand why someone else owned if POG were going develop it) but then he wanted to flex that up a little by giving away another 10% and he has a history of taking shareholders from £10 to 5p.
I thought they coverted after UCG
where does it say they have been selling, is it not just because there are more shares in issue ??
Reduced their holding by 2.6M shares. They must be ****ed that Pavel couldnt give them their "greenleaf". IRC is doing well, and now they have some surplus cash to improve their efficiency. Its also good news that they are diversifying thier customers. Really quite positive. We might see interim on Monday.