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In other countries they build the power cables into street lights and charge for power using IT.
The problem is that large sections of the LV system also is massively undersized. I just cannot see how long streets with terraced housing are going to be able to run electric car charging points when the supply cable to the street is only 0.1" single core cable. The loading on that cable now must be at its limit as it is.
Add to that the 33kv primarys that need transformer upgrades and circuit breaker upgrades just to handle the juice from the grid. As I said the company are aware of it but planning just one before even changing it can take 3 years.
GLA.
Perfect, why ITM develops rapid response electrolysers!
National Grid outlines future of frequency response
National Grid Electricity System Operator (ESO) has outlined the future of frequency response and reserve procurement as it bids to keep an increasingly renewables-driven power system stable.
As renewables penetration increases, usable inertia on the system is falling – and that is likely to continue, said the ESO. So it has redesigned frequency services to try and better meet evolving needs for faster response.
https://theenergyst.com/national-grid-outlines-future-of-frequency-response/
Yes. Even though the network is constantly being reinforced the constant adding of load with new build keeps up. It’s like painting the Forth Bridge. Overlay a large piece of network in bigger cross section cable, losses are reduced, then someone adds a new estate and up goes the load. Solar has not helped. On good days the network gets assistance but then at night and on grim days it loads back up. At this time of year it’s a pain. So, for me, hydrogen from renewables is the winner. On excess days you can store it and use it as and when. Much more flexible.
Bellers, is that really as tight as things are?
Hi Gunnerbgood. Welcome aboard. I just retired from a dno after 40 plus years. Same here, anyone applying for more than 100kva sends ripples of fear through everyone. :-)
Nothing like the horses mouth for reliable information GunnerBG. Welcome aboard hopefully some time soon.
Hi all, new to the board but have been reading since finding out about this share about 2 weeks ago.
I am yet to buy in yet as still doing my research but just wanted to add to what bellers is saying about the infrastructure in the electrical distribution network.
I work for the south west DNO and down here we have been told that there isn't any capacity for any major supplys etc to large scale building sites with a lot of property's to be connected. We are able to connect individual new customers but anything substantial won't be allowed ( I wouldn't be surprised to see people with deep pockets get approval though).
We have no capacity out of slot of our primary substations and a fair bit of the 132kv network will need upgrading also to allow for extra capacity but nobody is willing to pay for all of this at the moment!
What I am trying to convey here is that in its current state, as anybody who has any understanding in this stuff will know, is that the electricity supply network in its current state is already redundant just for new house connections let alone large scale charging stations or charge points at everybody's houses. This to me puts Tesla and the whole ev industry down the pan as it's just not viable without huge upgrades and investment.
Due to this I think my money will be better off in tech such as H2 here and hope to join you all in investing a bit of my money in ITM Power.
Good luck all
' or there would have to be a massive network of overnight chargers for sleeper-cabs up and down the country.'
I called my cousin, who has 80 truck cabs and 120 trailers and therefore keeps the cabs going all the time, about electric trucks. In the past when I have mentioned that I have seen one of his trucks he immediately asks 'was it on the move?' or 'was it stuck in a traffic jam?'. He replied that with the increasing important placed on tachographs in the cab and the fines imposed if rules aren't complied with the whole industry will have to change its modus operandi. His business revolves around the tacho. Rest stops and recharging (and avoiding delays in recharging, an unplanned event) will have to be co-ordinated one way or the other or he would lose time on each long distance trip including the return journeys. Remember intermediate rest stops 45 minutes, predicted recharging 5-6 hours.
So, nearly double the time, wages, running vehicle costs for a journey?
So forget cars, the recharging problem will be even greater for trucks and any long distance heavy vehicle and can only be ameliorated by a wholly comprehensive recharging infrastructure.
Can you imagine a coach load of elderly holiday makers on tour going for 6 hour breaks (I'm not so young myself).
So you're right, charging points at all truck and coach stops.
Battery vehicles are not really very environmentally friendly if you take into account all the mining of lithium, its processing and transportation to the point of use. Add to that the mountain of batteries that will need to be recycled at end of life. Now if hydrogen could be produced by solar power at point of use....
And even a high power charge point would not refuel as fast as H2.
Given the effectively limitless availability of solar , wind and wave power , and given that H2 makes up circa 75% of the entire universe , why would we want to live in a world of mucky batteries? Seriously , why?
Very interesting Bellers. That's why it's laughable when pro-battery people claim that hydrogen is a no-go because the infrastructure isn't in place. That is undoubtedly true, but it's the same case for high power, high capacity ev charging...the infrastructure is not there either. Cost of implementing a small ev charge point vs cost of hydrogen fuel station is a valid argument, but cost of high power, high capacity charge point will be significant so not so black and white.
Called in to system design at work an hour ago. Basically the networks are not up to it. All the transformers would need upgrading. Protection would need upgrading and the low voltage network would melt. So it’s not viable.
What concerns me about electric trucks is how much CO2 each of their batteries will emit during their manufacture. As a battery for a Ford Mondeo is estimated to produce around 12 tonnes of CO2, a 720 kWh battery could produce over ten times that amount. And at the current state of the art it could weight 5 to 6 tonnes and you have to carry that around all the time and at a time when weight reduction will be equally as important now as it will be in the future.
Much better technology all around to go for a fuel cell.
Just as the marine industry is seriously considering fuel cell for larger ships, but that will need a refuelling facility at most ports or container ships will not be able to collect and deliver our imports and exports.
The low voltage network was built for kettles NOT cars buses, trucks trains etc.. let alone heat.
The penny is starting to drop in the silos of civil service but it’s taking while... the only way to achieve widespread adoption to achieve clean emissions and decarbonise the grid, encouraging high penetration of renewable energy is through intelligent operation and deployment of rapid response electrolyser . Fuel cell vehicles are a straight drop in replacement for diesel, filling up with a store of energy, hydrogen, made at times when electricity is in surplus, greenest and lowest cost... ITM is in an excellent position!
Roughly...each depot with say 10 trucks charging overnight would destroy the network operators system that fed it. I’m visiting my old employment today so I’ll ask a network design engineer to do the calcs out of interest. I’ll post it this aft when I’m back.
Bellers, I think your son is exactly right. Even if you could eventually drive far enough on a battery charge, the logistics of high power charging is tricky. You'd either have to have multiple chargers at company depots to do their whole fleet overnight (huge electricity demand) or there would have to be a massive network of overnight chargers for sleeper-cabs up and down the country. That would be like the Tesla network on steroids as you'd arguably have to aim for over-capacity in every region otherwise you'd end up with some trucks missing out and effectively disabled for the next day's route.
Showed it to my son...drives a tanker...he burst out laughing. He said his boss won’t want that tacho still unless it’s on break. And if he can’t get from Bristol to Aberdeen in one hop in one shift there’s no chance. All to do with constant speed, minimum fill time and his breaks. However the good news is no-one could steal his diesel overnight. Bonus
Only did a quick search to find the following on line for another etruck and this is only for up to 240kWh. 6 hours charge time, range 250km.
Battery: 120-240 kWh
Range: 100-250 km
Motor power: 250 kW
Torque: 3.400 Nm
Charging time: 3-6 hours
GVW: 18.000 kg
You would struggle to charge 720 kwh without using cables so thick you wouldn’t be able to manage them. In addition you would need embedded generation because the networks as they are now would not be able to deliver the current. Batteries are ok for overnight charging to get you to work in the car next day. Unworkable for years. Hydrogen from renewables is the best way to go.
...and here's the link if anyone wants a read...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/03/nikola-iveco-partner-to-bring-the-battery-electric-nikola-tre-to-the-eu/
My suspicion is that today's drop is for the same reason as the one two weeks ago. It coincides with an announcement from Nikola Motors, this time for their model Tre (for the European market). The problem is that they are pushing Hydrogen further away with their talk of battery trucks. They're now suggesting the Tre will launch in Europe in 2021 as battery only with Hydrogen to follow if the infrastructure allows from 2023. My worry is that this approach could do them more harm than good as the truck is only likely to travel 250 miles on a charge. And with 720kWh to refill it's hard to see the appeal for heavy logistics people. So if they don't adopt it, that sort of market flop could make people extremely hesitant about backing a punt on the follow-up hydrogen one being a success.
Personally I still don't see an alternative for Heavy Goods other than hydrogen...except the alternative being to give up on climate change and just carry on burning fossils and re-evaluate in another 50 years.
General market downward movement. Another reason I don't use stops.
Exactly my thoughts