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I think many of us have them in SIPPs. My concern is that whenever there is a BCE https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/pensions-tax-manual/ptm088100 I'll be charged an extortionate fee for valuing the delisted shares.
My plan is to move them to my wife's dealing account as she's a basic rate taxpayer. It's an AJB account so not set up for delisted shares but at least I can keep them there without worrying about valuation costs.
The only way I can see of doing it is to fund the dealing account with the necessary funds then buy/sell is bitesize chunks thereby creating my own liquidity as you do it.
I believe its fairly certain that the delisting is a cynical ploy to effectively dupe the small PIs, prior to positive news-flow which would send the SP significantly northwards. The much awaited pipeline is any time now and with that now in sight, clearly its time to significantly raise production - no point doing it previously as there would probably have been selling the increased quantity.
So what can us small PIs do about this? Well I'd like to hold on but there are hurdles to consider.
1. I need to get it out of my SIPP. I have a plan on how I can do this - anyone else in this position?
2. I'd like to get the shares into an account that is perhaps geared for this delisted share - anyone have any suggestions?
3. I'd like to obtain a share certificate but I think GEEC will not facilitate this?
4. I'd like to understand how many of us are in the same situation - and how many shares are we talking about? I have a 180,000 GDRs.
So who else is out there?
Yes, I'll let you know if I do get a response. Does anyone know any brokers that deal with OTC, my thought is to buy mine out of my SIPP. I'd do this before the deadline so they end up in a dealing account but I'd like to get a broker who will be able to handle the delisted shares.
I haven’t tried Jonhas. My experience to date in contacting the company through their investor relations email link was almost zero response over many years. Definitely worth perseverance though. Good to hear if you get a response and what the company are advising shareholders to do right now.
Has anyone tried and had any luck with the email address provided in the RNS which is supposed to provide further information?
Withdrawals by Lump sums are also known as "uncrystallised funds pension lump sums" ( UFPLS). "uncrystalised" is the key word here!
I think AJB has a good explanation and the positives and negatives of each option. It is probably best to read up on those explanations which are given in your SIPP a/c.....I think you "Access my Pension" within your portal to get to this page which summarises and then gives you the option to access fuller information on a link for each of the following sections:-
Your options
Tax-free lump sum and drawdown
Receive a tax-free lump sum (usually 25%) from all or some of your SIPP. You also have the choice of taking taxable income either in one-off or regular payments. Read more on drawdown
Withdraw all
Take your entire pension as a lump sum (usually 25% is tax-free, and the rest taxed as income) and close your SIPP. Read more on withdrawing your pension
Pension lump sum (UFPLS)
Take a lump sum from your pension, with 25% tax-free and 75% taxed as income. The rest of your pension remains invested in your SIPP. Read more on pension lump sums
Annuity
Receive a tax-free lump sum, and buy a guaranteed lifetime income (annuity) from an insurance company with the rest of your money. Read more on annuities
I guess I/we could approach a licensed financial adviser if we were willing to pay for advice!
For those who are continuing to hold in the hope of future dividends, the following may be of interest -
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/double-taxation-relief/dt9552
As I understand the treaty, 10% withholding tax will be applied to dividends from shares, unless they are held within a pension, in which case there is no withholding tax.
My understanding is that for every £25 (uncrystallised) TFLS you take, £75 of the remaining fund is crystallised. I would have thought that's a crystallising event, but maybe if the value of listed shares and cash exceeds the value of TFLS plus the part you're crystallising then they don't need to bother to value the delisted stuff. I don't know to be honest. Have you already taken any TFLS while there are delisted shares in your SIPP and if so how was it dealt with?
I agree with what you say Bismark..........the point I was making I think (in retrospect) is that I'm trying to remain taking uncrystallised funds pension lump sums or UFPLS and not meeting a crystalising event until age 75yrs.
I hope I've read this right........happy to be, indeed need to be corrected if I'm got this wrong!
Was thinking the same thing. Good idea to use the general commodities chat board so I’d be happy with that.
I think the point is, regardless of whether you're approaching LTA or not, you need to get a valuation of your fund at any crystalising event. If your platform is incapable of doing so because it's too complicated they will employ another company to do it, and pass on the cost....
Ah... I missed that......LTAs.....I've purposely kept below the LTA.(avoid hassle) so I've got a bit more flex!
AJB says on SIPP Withdrawals:-
" Lump sums are also known as uncrystallised funds pension lump sums or UFPLS.
Am I eligible to take a lump sum/UFPLS from my pension?
You can take an UFPLS from any part of your pension fund that you have not already put into drawdown unless you have no remaining lifetime allowance or hold certain forms of protection. "
That's what I was talking about and what I do...from time to time......to be fair I really only do it as an exercise to check it works and then plow back the £2,880 net to get the £3,600 gross re-investment.
I have paid enough income tax in my life and avoid that today! GLA
I'd very much like to keep in touch with other investors after delisting. There is another board on this site we can use https://www.lse.co.uk/chat/general/commodities-and-mining/
It only sees a couple of new threads a month so we can start one called GEEC and just reply to it.
If anyone has any better ideas I'm happy to consider them, although I don't do social media.
When I take my TFLS, let's say the full 25%, that's a crystalising event. The fund needs to be valued to determine what 25% is and how much I can take. If the desisted value is >0 then it needs to be included so it must be valued. If LTA is still around (Labour say they will bring it back) then when the TFLS is taken the whole fund, including the delisted part is measured against LTA, the first test I think it's called. Second test against LTA is at 75.
You don't need to disturb your GEEC holding within the SIPP....If you want to make a withdrawal from your SIPP you can simply take e.g. £10k out of your cash fund (created by selling whatever shares you have in your SIPP)---surely you don't only hold GEEC? (I have about 30 holdings in my portfolio at pres. and a cash fund)....so with the e.g. £10k withdrawal you get £2,500 tax free and your tax code applied against the £7,500 to give you between £5k and £6.5k net on top of your £2.5k (TFC)! So you've taken £10k out but can leave the rest in your SIPP (inc. your GEEC shares).....am I comprehending your dilema/query/concern.....or 'ave I missed someit?
Lots to figure here, but i suspect that you are right Bismarck that to sell OTC, shares will need to be transferred out of a SIPP to a non SIPP broker account that can execute OTC. Once the trade is complete then there should be no problems returning cash proceeds to a SIPP with existing SIPP providers.
I couldnt find an ISA account that would accept GEEC shares so i have some in a fund and share account and some in a SIPP.
For the share certificate issuance, i think that if you pay £25 or whatever the fee is to have the shares registered in hard copy you will receive your own share certificate with your own holding and not a certificate representing the whole holding of the broker. My understanding is that the shares will no longer then be shown as a zero priced asset in your account and the only record that you will have of ownership is the certificate. I suspect that the broker will also update the company with owners details and total share holding so that the new registration is updated on the company records as well.
Interesting to see what looks like quite a large purchase of stock in GEEC today. I guess there are some investors who are comfortable with private markets and OTC trading and see GEEC at this price as a favourable risk/reward.
One of my concerns is valuation charges. The first crystallisation events in my 2 SIPPs are likely to occur next year when I may take tax free lump sums. I guess I'll just have to see what happens. I cannot see it costing more than a couple of hundred quid?
" it may prove difficult to value the unlisted GDRs and, should this be the case, we reserve the right to commission a valuation and charge your SIPP for it."
My only minor concern with unlisted would be when I will be forced to crystalise at age 75yrs. A few of these will no doubt have gone bust and/or liquidated....but perhaps a few will have to be sold......I hope the sum total to be "chump change" and if it was a concern over extra selling charges at age 75yrs.......then something else "big" will have gone wrong with my balanced portfolio/ wealth....lol...and I'd be consumed with that problem instead....lol!
bankrupty, below is AJB's corporate action message this morning. I understand this to mean that they can arrange the sale of delisted shares using a broker who does OTC but they will charge me for it, and should they have difficulty valuing them when I crystallise my SIPP they might charge for that too. You hold delisted in your AJB SIPP I understand so nothing unexpected or of particular concern I assume?
"Great Eastern Energy Corp has announced details of a proposed delisting from the London Stock Exchange (LSE). This means that the Global Depositary Receipts (GDRs) will stop trading on the stock exchange.
The company intends to cancel its admission to trading with effect from 21 April 2023. You may continue to buy and sell GDRs up until this date.
To view the announcement in full, please copy the link below and paste into your web browser:
https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/GEEC/notice-of-intention-to-delist/15881354
ISA holders should note that following the delisting, the GDRs will no longer be ISA eligible. Any ISA-holders who have not sold or otherwise moved their GDRs by the delisting date must transfer the holding out of their ISA within 30 days of cancellation.
SIPP holders should note that unlisted shares are not SIPP eligible. Unlisted GDRs will be displayed within your portfolio at cost and will not be revalued except where this is required in relation to their holding within a registered pension scheme, i.e. at benefit crystallisation events, reviews and pension transfers (subject to change). In these circumstances, it may prove difficult to value the unlisted GDRs and, should this be the case, we reserve the right to commission a valuation and charge your SIPP for it.
There may be a limited market or no market at all in the ineligible GDRs following the cancellation, and sales may require the use of specialist market makers. We accept no liability for the illiquidity of the unlisted GDRs and reserve the right to pass on any charges we incur in their sale.
Please copy and paste the below FAQ link into your web browser for more information on corporate actions:
https://www.ajbell.co.uk/sites/ajbell.co.uk/files/AJB_Corporate_action_FAQs.pdf
IMPORTANT NOTE - If you have any questions or queries regarding this event, please send us a secure message and ensure you quote the following in the ?Subject? field: CORPORATE ACTION - Great Eastern Energy Corp - 9771813
Updated: 22/03/23"
Thanks both for the updates. A couple of things have crossed my mind.
I've read that you cannot hold delisted shares in an ISA. Presently I'm not but I'll remember not to buy or transfer any there.
Mine are in my SIPP but I'm wondering how I would transfer them out of the SIPP if AJB or Interactive will not do OTC trades (same as Halifax)? My guess is that I'd need to open up a new SIPP with a broker who will OTC and do an "in specie" transfer to them. Presumably I cannot just transfer from SIPP to a non-SIPP broker account, or can I do that and the money goes back to the SIPP?
IMO you should note that an investment in e.g. GEEC through e.g. AJB or any other platform provider (whether in a SIPP wrapper or not)........you are not the legal owner and therefore any "share certificate" will be in the name of your nominee...e.g. AJB. Their share certificate will be in their name and be for their total shareholding (in other words for the sum of all their customer's "allocated" holdings. Therefore you will still have your allocation of "your shareholding" on your portfolio page (albeit with a £0 value) and it will only be removed if the company ceases to exist!
This is my understanding!
Thanks both for the helpful information. Halifax have responded to me and also confirm that after delisting my holding in GEEC will stay in the account with a zero value. They will forward any information from GEEC. Halifax will not be able to trade GEEC stock OTC on my behalf and so the holding would need to be transferred to an entity that can trade OTC for that to happen. Halifax stated that a share certificate can be requested for the GEEC holding but only while the shares are listed. After delisting they will not be able to issue a share certificate. They also indicate that GEEC may not issue a share certificate. cost of issuing the certificate is £25 and takes 2 to 3 weeks.
Also confirmed that it is possible to move the holding after delisting is completed (im not sure what the charge for this would be). Dividends and any return of capital would be received by Halifax after delisting and would sit within the account and be available for reinvestment (but not in GEEC obviously). They also confirmed that GEECs record of share ownership would be automatically updated with any move of holding to another stock broker after delisting.
Question fin my mind is whether to get share certificate issued now so that i have a tangible record of ownership as i doubt GEEC will issue these. Management own over 70% of the company and have demonstrated that they barely even acknowledge other shareholders - so best to assume that GEECs efforts to communicate and support minority holders through the delisting will be non-existant.
StockGREAT EASTERN ENER GDR EACH REP 0.5 ORD 'REGS'
Event TypeDe-Listing
DescriptionDelisting
Effective date: 21st April 2023
Market affected: London Stock Exchange (LSE)
Trading restrictions: The last day of trading is 21st April 2023
Great Eastern Energy Corporation Limited has announced its intention to cancel its listing of Global Depository Receipts (GDRs) from trading on 21st April 2023. This is expected to become effective on 21st April 2023 at 16:30pm.
As the shares will no longer be trading on a supported stock exchange you may choose to sell your holding prior to our last day of trading listed above or transfer your holding to another broker.
If you do not wish to sell or transfer, following the delisting we will endeavour to provide you with a share certificate in relation to your holding, should one be issued by the company in the future.
It's reassuring to know that you've had no issues holding your delisted shares in an AJ Bell SIPP. That's the same platform where half of mine reside.
I actually topped up with a few at 5p today which is a discount of 52p from book value.
I did ask AJ Bell what will happen to the shares in my SIPP once delisted. They have replied but they seem to think GEEC also has a "home" US listing -
"To confirm, I have contacted the relevant team and they have investigated this delisting. As this is a GDR on the LSE and it has a home listing in the US market. We are looking into switching the Sedol from this GDR to the home listing Sedol. An event for this corporate action is currently being created and will be distributed to shareholders accordingly once we have finalised how we are going to proceed with this recent corporate action news."
I'm not sure what share they can be confusing it with. No matter, I now feel confident that I can keep them there.
I have my SIPP with AJB.....and as long as AJB did SIPPs.....perhaps 20 years or more!
Over the time I have been more than happy with a lot of my "delisted" shares.......some have been bankrupt and have returned zero, some have gone into liquidation and returned something....and a few have returned loads and loads through dividends, special dividends and asset sales!
Some brokers have also been chasing me to get me to sell...lol!
Overall I am quite happy.....not sure if I've made a profit or loss overall.....but I still do not let "delisting" put me off....especially when the SP bears little connection with the NAV...........I don't tend to invest more than £1,000.....and I did buy in here yesterday!
Happy to sell on a spike or hold for long term! GLA.