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Hydrogen vehicles still need lithium batteries to run (just not as large as an EV). In a hydrogen vehicle, the hydrogen fuel cell charges the lithium batteries, and the lithium batteries power the electric motors that turn the wheels. Hydrogen vehicles don't worry me one bit. I suppose if we had 100% hydrogen vehicles, there would not be as great a demand for lithium. But we would still need lithium. https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-fuel-cell-electric-cars-work
Again, im sure the debate will continue until we are all driving EVs and it is plain to see what areas other alternative types of battery or chemical energy storage manage to hang on to.... there will be many other technologies in the mix as the lack of supply of raw materials will hold back the rate of EV dominance so other solutions will need to used in some areas..
but just think about some of the challenges.... EV detractors will say that there just isnt enough electricity to charge all the vehicles on the road.... so if proponents of Hydrogen for personal vehicles get their way, and we also try to live up to the Green Hydrogen instead of Blue hydrogen ..... thats 2.5x as much electricity needed. ... impossible economics
Unless the real cost of electricity drops low enough to be inconsequential in the equation (wouldn't that be a beautiful day) Hydrogen will remain restricted to sectors where its other benefits are attractive (e.g. long range and aviation). Otherwise massive subsidies will be required to support it.
Thats my opinion.... but as Scotty said... ye' cannae change the laws of physics. (as he tells captain Kirk that he cant give him the power to maintain their speed as they travel through the vaccum of space)
JCB and Ineous have developed a piston engine which uses the hydrogen directly. This will primarily power buses and hgv's.
Lithium still has place in the whole energy equation and will be in the ascendance over the next few years. I am a long term holder here and think EMH has a huge future.
Only benefit of H is range. As others have said, there is no benefit of using electricity to electrolyse water to turn into hydrogen to then run through a fuel cell and convert back into electricity losing energy each step of the way.
EV's as basically every car manufacturer CEO has said will always win that battle by removing steps. That's even before we consider that the electricity recharge network for cars is already years and years ahead of a Hydrogen network
Race is done, EV's have won
"Of course"? If viewed as an energy storage and transport medium it has at best 65% efficiency. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Of course hydrogen is going to work but not yet. It will take 20 years to become a threat to battery power by which time we should have all made a fortune.
Are people still debating the use of hydrogen? It's not going to work. The fundamentals make no sense. Move on......
JCB have developed a piston engine that operates on hydrogen.
I still believe there is plenty of opportunity for EMH and others as hydrogen is still years away from general use.
The fuel cell will be used in lorries and trains and I suspect it is very nearly feasible in aircraft. It will be expensive but in its niche doable
EVs are only a part of the clean energy revolution. Blue hydrogen is a non starter in my opinion as it defeats the object of the exercise. But green H has a future... in local area heating grids, in powering ships and trains, and maybe trucks and buses, and in local electricity generation to name a few. But it has to be green. Take a look at what's happening in Australia (of all places) re green H (see Province Resources and Total Energy)
I agree that H fuel cell powered domestic cars are probably unlikely, or at the best will be a niche market. But waste is a huge worldwide problem (even given that it needs to be eliminated if cities are actually to be sustainable) and waste-to-energy plants producing H from high temperature pyrolysis, where the H itself powers the furnace (eg see Powerhouse Energy), is another possible source apart from water electrolysis.
Anyway, the entire debate surrounding H is moot at the moment. Whilst the Li market is exploding. So let's stay focused on EMH.
Hi Major,
Just because its scientifically possible doesnt make it a commercial reality.
Long distance Hub to Hub commercial I can understand from a logistics point of view but if the hydrogen is from electrolysed water then the energy used it is at least 3 times more expensive than in straight EVs, and that is a baked in part of the energy balance that you cant get rid of (might be able to reduce it to some extent but it will always be a drag on performance unless some leftfield technology for taking the Hydrogen, storing and transporting it can be found that doesnt consume energy)
The blue hydrogen option is great from the point of view of our pensions as it gives the O&G companies a cushion as the world starts to move away from Petrol and Diesel .... but it isnt environmentally friendly. ....
I think the EV revolution is nailed on now for cars..... these other technologies are great, not just hydrogen but they will be limited to specific applications imo. In saying that there are lots of different battery technologies swirling around..... so I still think EMH and others need to get a move on. Nothing is going to push other technologies into the mainstream more than shortages and restrictions in the current battery metals needed.
Hydrogen is a dead technic.
- To produce 1 kW with liquid hydrogen, you need to put 3.5 kW power in Electrolysis
- Hydrogen will not be sent on existing pipeline because it is way smaller than natural gaz and will leak on junction… you need to create from scratch a all new infrastructure (gaz station, network, …)
- Hydrogène could have niche market in plane or Cargo .. not sure depending on how fast battery get more dense and cost less but will not make it to car, bus, trucks
- This move from Toyota … is just a smoke to hide Toyota is very late to the electric party and will probably be the first OEM to get bankrupt from rEVolution.
The H market will happen (and is, slowly) as well as the LI market, but the latter is far more mature. And the emergence of H is not an argument against investing in Li, not least EMH. The reason you're seeing Nel's success is because there are relatively few players at the moment, which is why I prefer HydrogenPro as they're further back down the development curve. Nel's already at more than 2 billion eur. You might double your money if you're lucky in the next 12 months, but you're equally likely to do that here, at least.
Antelope I WANTED cinovec sooo bad to be in mining production , but we all know what has gone on. Now other sector who are actually producing energy solutions are already taking market share. Another example of hydrogen progression :-
NEL HYDROGEN 5x 2020 GLOBAL supply , astounding and RIGHT NOW ! Production has now started at Heroya Denmark factory.
No political problems here. Pure and simple. The 24/7 , FULLY AUTOMATED , 144 ELECTROLYER factory in Heroya will open within days.
NOTHING like it in the world at present. Should storm the market in the next 12 months.
US Defence contracts.
US Nuclear Energy supply contracts.
EU Ammonia $800 MILLION projects starting by year end.
NIKOLA CORP supply can now start as Heroya is now in production. Contracted.
EVERFUEL supply can NOW start as Heroya is in production. Contracted.
HYUNDAI Swiss TRE IVENCO supply can NOW start as Heroya is now in production
Etc...etc.... Just do your own research or look back at my previous threads. Hope that helps you find your US PORT way to Hydrogen enrichment.
Well someone's been buying EMH big time recently. And NEL is already worth a fortune.. (I think HydrogenPro is a better bet).
The returns will happen here. The problem is time.
Threat to EV.
Toyota Mirai & Nel asa link up to create new world record for hydrogen distance.
https://www.h2bulletin.com/toyota-mirai-sets-the-autonomy-record-gac-launches-a-new-hydrogen-ic-engine/amp/
Emh , pull ya finger out , its already happening in hydrogen not just long haul trucks.
Steel, Aluminium, Nuclear, Haulage, Household power, Large Solar, Ammonia - not sexy BUT takes a hell of a lot of power = a hell of a lot of electrolysers ie Nel deal with Ibedrola Ammonia/Solar in Spain needs USD$800M approx to NEL. Just one project but it is massive scale and starts by THIS year end not blooming 2025-2027.
NEL HYDROGEN PRODUCE from NEW FULLY AUTOMATED , 24/7 Electrolyser Factory.
"potential pipeline of orders continues to grow, currently amounting to more than USD 6 billion and Nel reiterates the strong long-term outlook and growth prospects for the sector."
To add context to this scale up.
In 5 years from 2 sites ( 1 US & 1 small site in Denmark ) NEL produced 3,700 electrolysers to create hydrogen.
NOW they have opened up the first line of 3 that is NOW set to supply to NIKOLA CORP, TOYOTA, SHELL, ITAWANI JAPAN,EVERFUEL, HEXOGAN PURUS, IBEDROLA SPAIN 4,200 PER MONTH.
So from 3,700 in 5 years to 4,200 PER MONTH !!!
USD $6 BILLION Order Book potential.
Now that to me makes emh's pizzing about look shameful. Hydrogen IS now happening , not in blooming 2025 to full production in 2027 ??? KC pull ya finger out man arrrrgggghhhh it can be done.