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And not an investor
Who provided the figures he used. A boiler house contract maybe.
Sawaris END mining were mentioned , " Running rings around Centamin".
With its President refusing to face charges of fraud in African countries including bribery .of government officials tells the quality of its President ,and company.
Another mentioned often is Bristow, Barrick gold.
Take your pick .
They are the favorites of that person who provokes .
Strange .And furthermore insults investors in this company.
A thouroughly detestable person, arn ·t you ,not that you care as long as you get paid your pittance. :-)
Dasut unfortunately you will not be allowed to call it a day,I tried that.
At the end of the day a Contract was agreed and signed,
With time in mind.
It cannot be changed without default ,so the wholl discussion is pointless .
The cost will more than likely be covered by selling the product at a higher price and increased production..
I am sure we will all read some more blurb.
Not long back we were told that the mine had not the resources .
Really ?
If not ,I will be surprised
Cowichan sorry I can't agree with your numbers so as I said before lets call it a day and agree to differ.
Now DASUT will say:
'actually, after I've had a look at the numbers , they are in fact reasonable...'
Well of course they are. Despite DASUT saying in his post just before he was going to 'shout from the soap box' if $100 million was legit.
DASUT
Financial auditing is done once a year by the outside auditors - not monthly or quarterly as you imagine.
Regardless, auditors won't question how much profit Centamin cares to pay a contractor, now would they??
I'm working off numbers I've been given and I'll do the math real simple for you to follow.
Capital works on a 'cost plus' method, which means.
$200 million 'cost' to Capital
+
$100 million 'profit' to Capital
=
$300 million Centamin eventually pays to Capital over 4 years
That's the upper end of the original $235 to $259 million estimate plus 16% inflation ($259,000,000 x 16%= 41,440,000 = $300 million)
And that's a MIMIMUM estimate for Capital's PROFIT as there is NO hard 'cap' in the contract. It is all subject to negotiation as you've read for yourself (if indeed you bothered to read it)
Anyways people are tired of our bickering clogging up their chat board and most don't seem to care what amount of hyper profit Centamin pays a contractor - yourself included.
Whoever Dr David Martin is, was and whatever his motives, he was an Invited guest /speaker at the recent 'European Parliament International Covid Summit' - I didn't get an invite. :)
Thanks Cowichan but you still don't provide an answer to my question, more deflections. Where does the $100 million plus come from? If we can agree this number I will be shouting as loud as you from my soap box but I can't get close to this number being over what it would cost Centamin to do the work themselves.
Simple maths say $235 million divided by 120 million = $1.96 and $260 million divided by 120m = 2.17 per tonne BUT this is for two contracts. A 4 year waste movement and a drill and blast 15 month extension.
The Capital $21million capitalised in 1st qtr and 10.9 million tonnes moved is $1.92 this gets closer to the cost per tonne of the lower number if maybe we extract albeit a guesstimate the cost of the drill and blast contract.
OK there is a couple of maybe's that the capitalisation might not refer to the same period.
So do we trust the Centamin accounting practices given it is for a three month period and several weeks after the period ended, I would hope that they will have had enough time to provide accurate numbers for something you agree in fact advise is calculated monthly and I would think auditors will have a say in the numbers provided.
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Baha Breaking News (BBN) / JG
Happy Bank holiday y’al
Well said. Agree 100%
Cost control/management makes or breaks a project. Switching out dump truck bed liners and recycling mill crushing materials, etc. to save a few % is the name of the game and should be applauded as the cumulative effect of shaving costs here and there add up
So a 30% plus profit margin given away to a contractor for a straight forward waste moving project simply makes no sense & negates the whole effort to find such efficiencies - blowing years of profits made up until 2021
What I find strange Cowichan, is that we have been repeatedly & authoritatively told by many posters that the waste stripping program is a result of previous management not clearing the waste they should have cleared as part of previous gold mined.
If the above were true, how then is Centamin capitalising a large portion of the expenditure and also deeming a significant portion of the expenditure as non-sustaining capital. Even a basic knowledge of accounting standards clearly shows the two scenarios cannot co-exist.
Maybe it is a conspiracy or maybe it is simply that the current management consistently fail to provide proper disclosure of material financial information in relation to their strategies & treat the hard earned capital reserves accumulated by previous management as a fund to be thrown about willy nilly without any clear justification of the benefits of such largesse.
I have no problem with waste movement, part of the game, but I have a large problem with major expenditure programs being entered into without proper explanation. Management should remember that it is shareholders money they are spending not their own & treat it accordingly, if they need to spend it to further operational efficiency by all means spend it but have the decency & propriety to explain the benefits of the expenditure.
This is the cause of our diabolical share price, the market quite rightly hates uncertainty as it reflects risk, whilst their remains no clearly defined strategy to nor benefits of the huge expenditure involved in the waste stripping program the market will continue to treat it as sunk costs no matter what fun & games are played on the balance sheet.
One can only hope that there exists a real, well though out & beneficial plan to the strategy, that way shareholders will end up being rewarded eventually through exploitation of what is & always has been a quality resource. If not we may find ourselves sh*t out of luck for wont of a better term :)
MAY 16, 2023
Unlocking the Potential of Egypt's Mining Sector Challenges and Recommendations
H.E. Eng. Tarek El Molla, EMRA Premises
"From a financial aspect, Saudi Arabia was able to set its gold royalties at 1.5% and phosphate at 4% while Egypt’s rates are nearly four times higher. Mining industry stakeholders are interested in reducing royalties in order to be able to generate more production and hence further investment. It was agreed that the act of royalties is the main challenge that faces the Mining industry in Egypt"
"Members have discussed that amending royalty rates are under the authority of the Local Development Ministry and Ministry of Finance. However, there is mutual interest between the Egyptian Company for Mining and Members of the Committee in reducing the royalties in order to be able to generate more production and hence further investment."
https://www.amcham.org.eg/events-activities/committees/46
---------------------
Coming to an agreement on the gold royalty rate is going on two years ( the time was supposed to be capped at 12 months ) Barrick & Centamin are reluctant to spend money drilling targets etc. before this gets settled - thus pushing back the timeline to begin exploration in earnest quarter after quarter...
what will be the final outcome? nobody can say -
Many thanks Sotolo.
That sounds more like it .
Making money from publishing books.
Tibbs if I am reading this right Dr David Martin is not a medical doctor but a financial researcher full of conspiracy theories. See. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/new-plandemic-video-peddles-misinformation-conspiracies/ Martin has peddled conspiracy theories over the years. He published a novel in 2011, which he claimed was based on real events, alleging a rigged 2008 presidential election that was somehow tied to the terror attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
Not a lot to do with either Centamin or reality methinks
So, civil input in your mind = accusing me of making up conspiracy theories?
Sir, that's about as civil as MrBond & Mizolgit's animosity filled rants towards me.
However, for those LTH's who simply want to understand what's going on at Centamin I will explain what DASUT's latest post has wrong.
This is the second time DASUT posted misleading figures concerning the waste moving contract which should raise the question if he's misleading on purpose.
Here are several extracts from Centamin's latest Q1 2023 report:
Rebuilds, underground transition and other sustaining capex $10mil
Sustaining element of waste stripping capitalised $15mil
Sustaining expenditure capitalised $26mil
Contract waste stripping capitalised $21mil
Note the first item of $10million - it references the underground transition. That actually occurred in February of 2022 which is 15 months ago. Yet, the expense is 'capitalized' in Q1 2023. Thus it's not when that $10 million was spent, it's simply for accounting purposes.
Similarly, the last item on the list referring to contract waste stripping doesn't mean the only monies spent during Q1 was $21 million - indeed - it is just a portion of the spend to date capitalized for accounting purposes in Q1 2023. And even that sets aside the question of sustaining vs non-sustaining which is separated as well.
It seems DASUT either doesn't understand how this accounting works or would rather everyone believe the waste contract is a great bargain and shareholders should just take his word for it.
Not to be rude but DASUT also indicated he didn't get an invitation to vote at the AGM - which if he didn't attend in person would typically be done electronically. How it's possible to own shares in a company and not know how to vote is beyond me.
If I wanted to be uncivilized I might say DASUT's continued posting of misleading cost per ton calculations is 'conspiracy theory' as well.
https://im-mining.com/2022/02/08/centamins-sukari-underground-gold-operation-transitioning-owner-operator-mining/
PS
For Centamin shareholder wanting to see the Capital contract (which admittedly doesn't share cost per unit of volume as it's subject to change) it can be found here:
https://www.capdrill.com/media/investors/Announcements/CAPD_Launch-Announcement-RNS_20201202_Final_Website.pdf
Hi Tibbs - Yes, good idea. - A report from an expert credible witness. - 20 million dead so far. - It puts the Holocaust in the shade.
Cowichan I am not down playing anything I am asking if what you say is that $100 million plus should have been passed on to us shareholders which is what sparked my interest and if you are right then question The Board BUT I can't so story closed as far as I am concerned.
$21 million capitalised for contractor waste movement of 10.9 million tonnes says less than $2 a tonne.
I have read the extracts of the contract and sorry find nothing wrong. As for Centamin supporting Capital to finance the equipment sorry I don't see it as just Capital that gains. Centamin gets equipment on site to expedite the removal of waste, There must be far more in the contract than what I have read because BCM and LCM,(significant risks with material density and swell rate calculations) no mention of tonnes yet everything subsequently in the financials of both companies refers to tonnes being moved.
I can't make a call on the extractions of information or supposition because that can be dangerous.
All of my input has been civil and factual to the best of my knowledge and experience and as I say what I have read is typical of material movement contract be it on a road, dam, construction or mining project, so sorry I don't agree with your conspiracy theories.
We quite obviously have to agree to differ.
What I will however agree with is that the contract should never had needed to be awarded and should have been part of the normal mining process in past years. However it wasn't and the consequences are a 4 year expense that will hurt the bottom line.
Large cut backs or other issues unforeseen or otherwise that impact the bottom line are nothing new in Mining and from my experience certainly isn't only Centamin that has had to bite the bullet.
Hi Rebess,
Thank you, I intend forwarding this to my MP and to Caroline Lucas MP chair of the cross party environmental committee for their comments.
This is like something from a horror science fiction movie!
Best
Tibbs
Thank you Rebess.
An evidence based frightening summary .
Money the root of evil.
What is amazing is they covered themselves from repercussions, at the highest illegal level.
Similar to the fraud in the money markets.
And what are you attempting Cowichan, poo ,pooing everyone that disagrees with your narrative.
Go to work Cowichan. In a mine. Underground. ;-)
Watch it episode 124,.
And learn. Andrew once again.
All the Q1 figures say is :
The gross capex in Q1 was US$53.8 million and after removing the impact of the waste mining accounting treatment, adjusted capex was US$48.9 million. The Q1 capex was lower than budgeted due to delayed timing of actual cash spend**, which are likely to be incurred in Q2.
The capex guidance for the year remains unchanged.
Q1 2023 (US$m)
Underground exploration $3mil
Underground mine development $8mil
Rebuilds, underground transition and other sustaining capex $10mil
Sustaining element of waste stripping capitalised $15mil
Sustaining expenditure capitalised $26mil
North dump leach, tailings storage facility 2 & underground paste fill plant $4mil
Contract waste stripping capitalised $21mil
Other non-sustaining capex $3mil
Non-sustaining expenditure capitalised $28mil
Total expenditure capitalised $54mil
Less:
Sustaining element of waste stripping capitalised $(5)mil*
Capitalised Right of Use Assets -
ADJUSTED CAPEX (after reclassification) 49
* Reclassified from operating expenditure, from 2021, the Company implemented a more granular methodology to the accounting and classification of waste-stripping costs, in line with IFRS accounting standards. As such, there is an accounting reclassification of open pit
waste mining costs, resulting in a reduction in total cash costs with a corresponding equal increase in the sustaining expenditure
----------------------------------->>>>
you'd have to ask management exactly what ** "delayed in timing of actual cash spend" means vs how much $ was simply accounted for as capitalized. Not all capitalization of waste stripping has been or will be approved by the EMRA (it is a sustaining vs non-sustaining question i.e. yet to be determined) , that's why the EMRA reached a penalty settlement with Centamin ( charged back tens of millions to be paid in installments ) in both 2021 and 2022 year end figures
bottom line: capitalized is an accounting term, subject to yearly limits, and therefore not necessarily representative of current payments month by month or quarter by quarter
https://www.centamin.com/media/2959/cey-rns_-1q23-quarterly_final_200323_website.pdf
Anyways DASUT, why so determined to downplay the cost of the waste stripping contract ?
You are attempting to paint it in the most favorable light at every turn - calling the contract typical and poo pooing the aspects that are clearly favorable to Capital? That's not expected actions of a Centamin shareholder looking out for his own best financial interest.
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0WLUyfGHFU The FED to hike rates in June.
Cowichan sorry forgot to add 1st quarter Capital were paid $21 million for waste moved at 10.9 million tonnes. So $1.93 per tonne according to financial statement.