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'Haha, it'd be funny if I was that Engineer'
LoL. If it was you, you also taught me 4GL on an old IBM mainframe..
Fleccy - honestly nope, I wouldn’t know.....
"No, lol, but I believe you. I first learnt what a multiplexer was in 1989"
"Met the engineer investigating the outage and the rest is history"
Haha, it'd be funny if I was that Engineer
'would you know whether i'm just BS'ing?'
No, lol, but I believe you. I first learnt what a multiplexer was in 1989 when I tripped over it and pulled a cable out. Met the engineer investigating the outage and the rest is history...Cisco, Inmarsat, ICO, MCL, CW, BT, 3, TMob, Batelco, Colt, Vodafone...
"Haha Fleccy I’ve heard telecom industry is full of BS’ers & only 1% of engineers actually understand any of it"
Actually you have to understand enough to fault find it. Cisco have provided customer solutions for years and even pioneered VOIP through Poe and switch routers in conjunction with call manager. They also provide network switch routers, but Juniper seems to have burst their bubble on that somewhat. You're correct that it's too complicated to understand everything and i'd definitely be fibbing to clam I knew everything, about everything, but I know enough to fault find most network faults. DWDM is basically 10G, or 100G channel cards that present to the client side at 1300, or 1550nm (b&w) and output to the line side at a fixed wavelength within a band. The wavelengths are combined through optical combiners and amplified before being transmitted to line. The combined DWDM band can be amplified without electrical conversion using erbium doped fibre amplification with pump lasers providing the input power, or another amplification method is Raman, which uses multiple pump lasers and transmits down the fibre towards the incoming signal and amplifies it before it hits the Receive amplifier. The DWDM signal is the spit into multiple streams, to the receive of the channel cards, which filter and convert their specific wavelength. Of course I could be making all this up, would you know whether i'm just BS'ing?
Hey NDN I agree it’s a nightmare but it’s not like they haven’t done it before. 17m premised now, what do you think another 5 to 10m and they will be done, leaving BT with the rest. Although as you said I’ve read articles where liberty are talking about areas they may have previously considered uneconomic?
Who knows, I’m just trying to point out some of the conclusions I have come to, off my own back regarding the risk. It might turn out Comcast and liberty don’t get in?
Haha Fleccy I’ve heard telecom industry is full of BS’ers & only 1% of engineers actually understand any of it (earthnet). Cisco is only just over 30 years old isn’t it? .... close run thing that. States maybe?
Fleccy. Yup forgotten more than I think my brain can remember. Including, temperature equalisation !!!
Aus I completely agree with the number of connections they have, why would they not on there own local network as they offer BB TV phone at a competitive price. Thing is its geographical, only where they have a local network, no connections outside of that, perhaps as they could not be as competitive as others delivering only BB and phone over Openreach's network. Yes they are expanding there network but only extending there existing network as new builds come along in there areas. Even there website is pretty poor at the moment, it is unable to accept my postcode, just hangs there with a big question mark, so much for a 1gig link if the website won't work.. lol
The point I make is it is a horrendous task building a new telecoms network, just look at the examples of Crossrail and HS2 phase one. Thats just laying some bits of steel on some patio slabs on private land LOL
Enjoy the weather, while it lasts...
Fleccy changing the colour of water in the pipes is one thing, but the pipes themselves ? I think we’ve been helped by NDN who has already explained digging and laying pipes in the hard costly bit
I was also very careful to say BT’s “network” was public funded (access is still same twisted pair in the main) I AND it gave them too much of an advantage.
It’s the combination of public funding and market advantage. I’ll say it for the 3rd time Neither of which virgin has
I also didn’t say virgins network wouldn’t be regulated, of course it’s regulated, I was careful to say “forced to open its network to others”
Because neither of those 2 previous conditions can be met..... this is a pointless discussion unless you know something new?
Don't tell anyone, but I've worked on nearly every type of network site imaginable, Thus, C&W, Vodafone, Your Communications, Nynex, BT and many other providers. I've changed desk telephones, worked on Cisco routers and switches, analysed signalling protocols, such as Dass2, Q931 and C7, worked on network hierarchies from FDM, right through to the current DWDM systems, as well as submarine cable terminal equipment and tested international circuits at SDH and SONET data rates. I have worked in the industry for 30 years though, so I've forgotten a lot of stuff too.
:-) they are in a frame. Share certificates were beautifully embossed. Have collected a few, AT&T, Eurobonds etc. Also lots of stamps from the early days of international interconnect ;-)
"Fleccy, LoL, I still have my 2 NTL shares for my original £100 of Nynex plus £174 cash. Happy days."
You should display them in a frame and use the £174 to buy BT shares lol
" I said bt’s Network was funded by public money and that this gave them too much of an advantage in the market. "
Aus since the BT network was public owned, the network has gone through multiple transformations, from FDM, to PDH, to SDH and the latest is a move to OTN Flex over DWDM. The network has changed multiple times, since public ownership, so I would say the Government have no public ownership rights.
Fleccy, LoL, I still have my 2 NTL shares for my original £100 of Nynex plus £174 cash. Happy days.
"The question also has to be asked, why would Virgin not be forced, in the future, to open there last mile network up, they did not pay for it to be installed the original cable TV company did Virgin just bought it. We all paid, or our parents did for BTs network before privatisation much of which still exists in the last mile."
very true NDNIC. I remember the original cable companies, like Nynex, Videotron and Bell Cable media. C&W took them over and they were subsequently sold to NTL, which lead to the merger with Telewest and the purchase of Virgin Mobile to make Virgin Media, which was then bought by Liberty Global.
They aren't immune to regulation.
Fleccy I wasn’t talking about Openreach and company ipo’s. I said network. I said bt’s Network was funded by public money and that this gave them too much of an advantage in the market. Neither of which apply to the cable “network” which is why ofcom will never force them to open it up to others
Aus in relation to some of your comments.
"Virgin Media’s network will never be regulated and forced to open to others like Openreach because it’s been entirely built with private money."
BT was sold in an IPO and therefore no longer owned by Government, so Openreach is owned by private money. If Virgin media became bigger than BT, then they would be regulated for competition reasons.
Ofcom's proposals to open up Openreach's ducts and poles will still be at a cost to the operator using them, which will go into Openreach's coffers, which will ultimately go to their only shareholder, BT. Ofcom can't regulate Openreach to provide service at a loss and since Openreach has a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholder(s), Ofcom can only do so much to set wholesale pricing. The 3rd party providers recently complained that the new proposals don't go far enough and BT isn't complaining, too much, so I would say that BT aren't unhappy with the direction of travel.
BT are effectively off the hook with Openreach, as BT is now relegated to the position of customer and shareholder. Openreach will produce yearly accounts, which will be submitted to Ofcom, who will then regulate the pricing. Ofcom will then set pricing levels dependent on the level of profit negotiated. BT may have to pay more for Openreach services, going forward, but it will eventually come back through their shareholding in Openreach. Expect Openreach to make a lot of noise in the next couple of years, once they're fully established as a company independent of BT.
NDN we’ve discussed this before, your argument doesn’t stack up to me. You say it too difficult, too costly,,yet Virgin already has 17m + premises passed. I wouldn’t expect them to cover 100% but equally I can’t see why they wouldn’t do more, especially now they are cash rich, they have a potential partner in the U.K. & it’s the only way they can expand or grow. You already answered you own question regarding 3rd party access, all the other cable companies used private money & then telewest/ntl bought them and all their assets, later for liberty to do the same. BT had its ducts and network (physicals) paid for with public money & were handed too much of an advantage / monopoly because of it. Liberty has none of these, liberty will never be forced to share their cable network unless I’ve missed something or don’t know something this subject can’t keep coming up for debate..... there literally is no debate.
All the talk about new networks being built by, a-n-other, is mostly that ,talk. Firstly they would almost certainly need to open it up to competition, if only to gain extra income streams to help offset there build costs. Thats the next thing, the cost, if the intention is to overlay the existing BT (and Openreach ,just call it BT for now) the cost would be way to high to see any decent return for many years. If it was just to hit the hot spots, then maybe on the cost front. If anyone was thinking about it then they would have done it 10-15 years ago when services such as BB and Digital TV were seen as a money making cow, but no they took the easy rout, and sat on the back of BTs network, as it was more profitable. Then theres the neat issue, building that network, getting permission from the local, or county council, to install the ductwork, is a nightmare. A local B road to me had a collapsed BT duct that a new Fibre service needed to be provided along. Permission to lay a new duct for about a mile took 6 months to get, meant closing a section of the road for just over a mile, for 5 days as it was deemed that a rolling roadworks taking 5-6 weeks would be to long as the road is a school bus route, so was done at half term. Can you imagin the problems at a national level, it would take forever...
The question also has to be asked, why would Virgin not be forced, in the future, to open there last mile network up, they did not pay for it to be installed the original cable TV company did Virgin just bought it. We all paid, or our parents did for BTs network before privatisation much of which still exists in the last mile.
So, who is going to tackle all that and its cost, to then have to give access away...
From previous posts, we noted degrees of regulation depending on the level of competition in individual exchanges, locales etc. For the regulatory economists, they probably have achieved some grand formula where marginal cost equals marginal revenue equals the long run average incremental marginal network cost....When 'enough' meets all those conditions we have the perfect stuck in the middle conundrum.
Bojo wants grandstanding fibre to the population which if Openreach is allowed to IPO would fund the necessary investment imo and callibrate with subsidiary investor market strategies like Comcast or BT Retail ?
Continued - just to add I see apple struggling with my “enough “ theory, iPhone sales are down because iPhone customers already have “enough” so the expense of a new one are no longer a primary concern. The difference is apple have lots of other things people want to buy.... ergo the problem.
Sorry 1 giga bit
Virgin Media’s network will never be regulated and forced to open to others like Openreach because it’s been entirely built with private money. That’s not to say for example they won’t open up to fellow cable operator COMCAST (sky) which I’ve already said might happen because Comcast will be of the view cable is king. Liberty have all the cash from their european sales to Vodafone & the pair of them might be game changers in the U.K. with Openreach & maybe virgin networks plus new 5G solutions, I would have to say that reaches the definition of enough network, both of which delivering more than enough to a retail customer, But this still leaves BT needing something to sell at a level covering their costs plus profits. It’s not new network, because most users already have “enough”. The cost of enough is going to go down & Virgin for example is much more streamlined than BT is it less than 6000 staff?. This is all down to the “as much “ as you can eat model, the capacity is growing in cost & increasing every month, whilst the cost or what people will pay goes down driven by the customer already having “enough”. The model works if BT could charge for usage, but it can’t. BT TB and sport was a brave attempt to have something not network related to create revenue but sky is equally as dominant in TV as Openreach is to network, or was before Virgin and others arrived. BT has missed the boat a bit on TV, they had the chance to blaze a trail & get a head start with a really smart tv offering before SKY could change, but they have now with Q and NOW tv........ BT could have been the first to bring everything together over IPTV (like Apple TV does) but they chose the set top box model which was more like a sky offering in a market where sky was dominant. Looking to the future, there might be one last hurrah before BT needs to get successful at other things. The bojo government might throw money and reduce regulation for full fibre..... but this worries me too. The risk here is BT increase prices but forced COMCAST into agreeing terms with virgin, not only based on ideology but price?.. of course BT is much bigger than broadband to the home, but none of its other business are making money either. So what does the future hold, where will BT find a market to cover its extraordinary costs, driven by over the top services who do not pay nearly enough for what the use / encourage others to use. BT needs to find a way to leverage its network, otherwise it’s not king, it’s a mill stone. Any ideas ? Bearing in mind Virgin will offer 1ghz download to all their customers end of next year.
" Mean while telecoms company’s are not getting their piece of the pie for the increased traffic, other than small opportunities to revenue very low cost rental / wholesale income"
OFCOM's forced Openreach into becoming a separate wholesale network infrastructure/Utility provider, which is fine as long as Openreach maintain their dominant last mile position. There's been talk of a company, separate from Virgin Media, but tied to Liberty Global/Lion Tree, investing in fibre roll out and renting it out to Virgin Media, thereby avoiding Virgin Media being categorised the same as Openreach and therefore avoiding the same regulatory scrutiny. I say good luck with that, because BT will go screaming to OFCOM and force them to reduce the regulatory pressures, on Openreach, citing unfair competitive practices. I suspect that the parties involved are already sounding out Ofcom and deciding if it's worth bothering. Openreach are also throttling up their Fibre rollout to 20,000 homes per week and other potential competitors must be wondering if it's worth ploughing capital into an already highly competitive market, bearing in mind the amount of civils capacity available and the cost of rollout. Ofcom has already achieved what they set out to do and caused BT/Openreach to put the pedal to the metal. Lets see how this unfolds, it would appear that this is seriously being looked at, going off recent press coverage. As I've stated previously, it's ok putting fibre in, but you need the network to support it, which means Equipment/Buildings with sufficient power and cooling, not cheap to start from scratch and if they co-locate at Openreach/BT exchange facilities, then they are at the mercy of the Landlord, for the entirety of their last mile infrastructure. Ofcom must be at the limit of their ability to regulate Openreach, I don't see how they can do much more, without kick back through the courts, like the previous case that BT won.
https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019/08/16/report-dunn-to-lead-libertys-uk-full-fibre-push/