Gordon Stein, CFO of CleanTech Lithium, explains why CTL acquired the 23 Laguna Verde licenses. Watch the video here.
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Sanchez that is not exactly what is being said.
Simply put we would all like style to match the substance. But presently in the opinion of some that isn’t the case, although I think some make a little too much of this. It is not a situation I am happy about … BUT … at least the company is doing what it said and building a large low cost vertically integrated Vanadium platform. That is something that we should all be united about. A very real entity is being created that should provide significant returns for shareholders.
No one is choosing A or B as being a preferred option in the way you suggest. It is merely being pointed out that at least the business is solid even if PR is not always up to par. I totally agree that this should not be a ‘binary choice’ and that isn’t what is being said. It is merely an acknowledgement of the real world being perhaps less perfect than we would like.
I will say that if BMN was fantastic at PR but was not delivering the business I would have sol out years ago. Had my fingers burnt too many times with companies like ANGS to ever want to be in that position again.
Hope that illustrates that there is no disagreement between us on this issue.
Pdub.
Just a quick response to the comments regarding support of substance over style. Simply put, in the real world it isn't and should never be a binary choice. Truly great businesses do both very well and it's a bit odd to counter the point by stating which you would choose if you could only have one.
I personally want Bushveld to be the best company and success it can be, deliver the greatest ROI to its shareholders and take its chance to position itself and VRFB within the energy transition as effectively as it can. And as a shareholder if I see something the business can do better I will continue to air that view, because both VRFB and Bushveld would and could benefit enormously from their message reaching a much wider audience. If VRFB had fully made it and we were a billion pound company, then fine but it hasn't yet and we aren't. And at 16.5p and treading water I am honestly surprised more people aren't demanding more from this company too.
So much about Bushveld is excellent and I love sharing why I think so, but equally this is a serious business and where there is room to improve the business itself should be hungry to do so, hungry for feedback and certainly more keen to tell the world its story (at such a time of revolutionary developments within its own market), than any shareholder is.
It's not just about wanting better PR or Comms it is about a well-rounded, business pushing itself hard, demonstrating how well run it is and truly seizing the opportunity that is presenting itself on the global stage.
Not sure why my earlier post was taken down. I guess direct talk is frowned upon . So I re-post a toned down version:
“Eccles in my opinion your so called ‘fact’ is incorrect.
Anyone who bought the bulk of their investment between 2013 and 2016/17 could have sold at a huge profit in 2018 or may be still holding (as I am) and enjoying a large % paper profit.
Anyone who bought the bulk of their holding between March 2020 and November 2020 should be enjoying a decent % paper profit.
Therefore your statement “This business has done absolutely sod all for shareholders in all the years it's been supposedly in business” is very clearly incorrect.
Of course there will others who were not so fortunate with the timing of their entry or have topped up at higher prices and presently are underwater. They have my sympathy as I have been there too. There are no guarantees when you buy shares. However the fundamentals of this company suggest that it is only at matter of time before the share price properly reflects the growth of the company and rising vanadium prices.
By all means voice your opinions but you need to distinguish between those and what are facts.
Clearly some agreed with your statement. Given that in my opinion you were incorrect, I am surprised to say the least.”
All of the above is just my opinion.
Excellent posts BBN.
I agree that the company should be able to both develop a solid business and have effective PR, but if only one then yes the former.
@Sanchez599
I certainly do not sit in the "oh well it's BMN and they can't do both" camp. My comments were not designed to dismiss concerns over PR or how the company presents itself.
If I could have both I would gladly take them and management should be encouraged where possible to deliver on this front. However, if I have to make a choice then clearly I would take substance over PR and that is where BMN is at right now.
Does the lack of PR drive me to want to give up on the opportunity that is clearly being presented here? No, because even without it the substance is there.
This company is fully funded to deliver 6,800 mtV to a market that is clearly beginning to accept the role of VRFBs in the energy storage sector. The energy storage sector is clearly heavily supported by an energy transition that cannot now turn back. Meaning it's very likely that BMN's initial 6,800 mtV planned output will find consistent and well-priced demand.
That will happen whether BMN advertises it or not. Furthermore, the energy transition itself coupled with the efforts of energy storage/VRFB industry participants will very likely do all the PR work for them. That interest and attention are now just gathering pace. At some point, VRFB players will be included and then everything else should then take care of itself.
It's important not to forget that BMN attracted the support of Orion. Yes the price could have been higher and PR may have helped that cause but then the effects of the Covid pandemic would likely have snuffed such endeavour out. That's because many weren't sure what the future held back in September 2020 and yet Orion committed to this business at that time. Orion doesn't invest in just any mining business. They are particular.
Despite all of that I would really like to see BMN present its updates more clearly and more staggered. What I am saying is that despite this failing the investment case remains very strong and the key fundamentals unaffected.
When sentiment turns and the market takes up the BMN story properly again, it will have a far different beast on its hands and it will be because of the substance that was created in the testing interim and not any PR that sells a business that isn't built yet.
My view only and I fully respect that of yours and anybody else invested here.
Agree fully on the current timing for BMN. However this is the point that is continually missed or just accepted as 'oh well it's BMN and they can't do both' - It is absolutely possible to have both style and substance. To deliver rich substance in a polished, mature manner. It is possible to build some excitement and enthusiasm, and to be clear and engaging to new and old investors around those key moments of delivering substance. If substance is delivered with style, it will have greater reach and potentially more impact.
It is literally why companies have marketing budgets.
I think that “powder” is being shipped to the MM’s in the City!! ????
Just looked at Largo link again. Interesting that they show a picture of 200kg steel drums containing "V powder" - are they making electrolyte or not?
2/2
When the excitement all started in 2015/16 over VRFBs and what BE could achieve in the market, very few appreciated it would take 5 years or so to come good me included, but that history doesn't make the present any less viable or exciting.
If Largo somehow taps into that VRFB opportunity at a large scale then that means the world is equally as ready for the likes of Invinity, Eneroxy and indeed BMN led projects themselves. That's because those companies are far more advanced in their networks and project pipelines than Largo could ever be at this point.
Time and sentiment can wear us all down but right now is truly the most exciting point in BMN's world as a fully integrated vanadium player. A statement that is not undermined by the lack of updates or the style of their presentation. Substance is what wins through in the end and not sexy headlines. BMN with the opportunities they have carved out these last few years, whilst the share price has fallen away have created the architecture for delivering that substance. All other shareholder desires and earned rewards should then follow.
1/2
Well, there is a lot of opinions spliced into what I just wrote also.
I completely understand the frustration from shareholders who have watched the value of their investment consistently fall these last few years. It is why I try to tread as carefully as I can when presenting facts and my interpretation of them.
However, I also believe that BMN is in a far stronger position than many are prepared to accept right now because sentiment is undermining the general through the process. This is playing out right now through the perceptions of the progress being made by Largo in their clean energy arm. To be clear, its not a competition and nobody is getting a jump on anyone.
These guys all work closely together and I have little doubt that there will be a link back to the work of MN and BMN at Vanitec which has helped form this strategic move by Largo. When the SP is deflated it is easy to forget such details but MN is the chair of the Vanitec Energy Storage committee. He and this company are forefathers to the whole VRFB industry having started on this path many years ago. They have single-handedly resurrected 3 VRFB companies and delivered all their business to their door. That business requires time to come through but it is on the way.
For those that dig deep enough, it is clear that BMN's tie-up with the IDC in 2016 delivered the Eskom BESS project to the market. BMN management drove that and investors should be asking themselves on what grounds the IDC was convinced to part on the largest electrolyte plant outside of China?
The hardest part was getting them set up with the capital, the structure and a manufacturing capability that has the ability to expand into the opportunities they are now carving out. Again, this all takes time and Largo for all their headline-making words must walk the same path. There is no quick fix. Just look at Rongke Power and their 300MWh facility which should by now be 3GWh and they are the biggest player out there.
As an example, take Invinity. Through their Oxford hub project which I believe is due to come online at the end of H1 2021
and their work with the California Energy Commission, they have landed core partners who once they see the benefits of the systems they have inaugurated, can and I think will scale up their business with the company. With Pivot Power at Oxford, there is a strong chance that the vanadium rental product finds an expanding home. However, if nothing else the rental product beds in.
We are yet to hear about Enerox but we know they are the supplier to Portliner and will highly likely be the local VRFB assembly partner, feeding into opportunities presented by the Vametco mini grid. All of which will be fed by BMN because of the work they spent these last few years cultivating but that takes time to develop.
BBN made a good point .. need to demonstrate it, and DD "MN said over a year ago that he was fielding "hundreds" of enquiries to BE. But virtually nothing ( excepting Pivot Power) seems to have come of them. If they had resulted in a secure pipeline of orders, then the imperative was to get the electrolyte facility up and running as soon as."
Bang on ... Remember RedT and its mythical pipeline of over 200 enquiries ...
Given what is being built, has been (or is about to be) commissioned then I have no doubt VFRB will grow enormously. The advantages over Lithium are just to many over a long period of time.
But proving out, examples etc are needed. When RedT did a huge fundraise what they did not do was build a significant system, install it for free and use it to demonstrate .. instead paying large bonuses and p155ing the dosh away.
The Electrolyte plant slower timing is I think a direct result of MN understanding how long it would take for traction outside China to really get going. There are a number of Invinity projects in development for commission during this year - these are extremely valuable to give a measure of early performance. Despite the slow plant development, full operational capability of summer 22 looks timed to be about right really.
Don't forget - every gram of Vanadium can be sold at least twice over into steel... still all very good
Here is a fact:- This business has done absolutely sod all for shareholders in all the years it's been supposedly in business.
Thanks for posting your thoughts BBN I do sincerely hope that they arnt lost amongst the masses. Facts over fiction is what I want to hear, managed to pick up a few more yesterday gla.
That quote from MN was from two years ago in response to a question asked by email from a poster on this bb (sorry cannot recall). I think others also had a similar upbeat response. It will be interesting to see what the Q1 update has to say about the Electrolyte plant, the build was supposed to start on February 22nd. I cannot see them starting it without firm orders in the pipeline, whether from Eskom or elsewhere, but at present the company have not reported anything for months regarding orders or plant progress. This next update, hopefully in the next week or so, will possibly answer a few questions.
I applaud Largo's drive and the simplicity of their sales pitch but I take their headlines with a pinch of salt.
To be clear, I really do hope that they push hard and succeed as quickly as possible because it can only help expand the understanding of VRFBs and improve demand for vanadium.
However, VionX Energy look s to have succeeded about as much as Redt or Avalon did prior to their merger. Their IP could well be strong but their contract wins and portfolio just isn't there right now. So first and foremost just like Invinity they have to win smaller projects and demonstrate their capabilities. Yes the VRFB landscape is changing but even so, companies with limited experience and roll out remain a risk for clients.
So whilst the headline figure states a very sexy "annual manufacturing capacity of 1.4 GWh" the journey to achieving such built out capacity (because the first facility clearly won't be that large because it would only add to production costs) is for me unfortunately still a long way off.
Largo may well be able to throw more cash at their enterprise but I really don't see it being any more intensive than what Enerox have just achieved. Plus cash can only go so far. They need the staff, the expertise, the organizational structure etc mand most of all the contracts pipeline.
That all takes time to bring together and will likely follow the exact same path that Invinity and Enerox are now on.
The market isn't stupid. These headlines will of course receive initial excitement but it will quickly fade until such time that the headlines are replaced by something of substance.
There has been much talk about Largo's share price being unjustifiably higher than BMN which to a certain extent is true. However, they are considerably more profitable at current prices than BMN and have a large cash pile and no debt. They also have a far more favourable exchange rate which has not returned to its pre-Covid levels as the Rand has. This is driven in part by their Covid situation and has a significant impact on profitability.
Do I think the gap is fair? No, I do not but then BMN is on a different journey right now. Largo has a relatively new plant with limited expansion programmes that don't cost too much and don't affect ongoing production.
BMN is in the middle of a significant capacity expansion that will soon start to deliver them the same cost benefits and has yet to report on progress. As the market grows in confidence about its expansion and the timelines involved, then some of that valuation gap will start to be filled in. Also, the exchange rate can't have it both ways. A weakening dollar shouldn't just bring higher local costs. Eventually, it should deliver higher commodity prices in the things that are dollar-denominated such as vanadium.
BG. My thoughts too. MN said over a year ago that he was fielding "hundreds" of enquiries to BE. But virtually nothing ( excepting Pivot Power) seems to have come of them. If they had resulted in a secure pipeline of orders, then the imperative was to get the electrolyte facility up and running as soon as. Instead, it seems we are tied to just one possible income source: the much-delayed Eskom contract tenders. And that would be disappointing as we would be stuck with South African politics and timescales.
Great for the industry but depressing they 'seem ahead of Bushveld now. The simplicity of talking about being a battery supplier has gone down well with investors unlike our convoluted protracted message. Nice to see a view on when they expect to start supply as well.
They are going to offer leasing contracts too!!!
https://www.mining.com/web/largo-resources-taps-brazil-in-vanadium-battery-push/