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Halespur, as a Tesla owner would you be willing to share your own experience of battery degradation over the life you have had the car, typically how long do you take to charge, do you use on route charging or focus on home charging? Was it a good decision for you and would you recommend it?
I hope people do not mind this discussion on a weekend has it does have some revalence to all and of course in future charging stations will need to have their own local energy storage, hopefully in the form of a large VRFB!
Thanks, RK
It's all food for thought DaddyBB and RK.
I suppose the advance from the 24kw original leaf to the 90kw ipace shows how far things have gone in 8 years.
But it does also demonstrate the lithium EV dilemma. 24kw leaf had a 72 mile real world range originally when new. But amost 4x the power in the ipace batteries gives a real world 190miles (say 2.5x the range of the old leaf.) I know you'll say that the ipace is bigger and heavier but it has to be to accommodate that stack of batteries.
I remain unconvinced that 4x the power, 3x the price, but only 2.5x the range is demonstrating any real progress in battery tech that will facilitate mass market adoption and eliminate fossils.
Yes VV, I watched Harry’s Garage too. Very real world. Of course as a full time owner you would have the correct payment cards set up and would plan. The Zap-Map app will be very useful. None EV users hardly see charging points apart from Tesla. But they are all over the place. Many are free to use and some are covered under schemes partnerships with manufacturers. Of course it will be possible to top up on a fast charge with enough to suit your timing that day as some do with ICE cars. For business users it will be more challenging and knowing locations of fast chargers will be key. I think more businesses will install charging points for visitors and management which will help. Some may go further. The cost of electricity is so much cheaper than diesel or petrol. Most companies have huge roof space which could easily be covered in Solar panels which would help reduce carbon foot print and help business tax.
We just need to learn a new way to get around with good planning.
Cheers RK
I had one of them electric cars once. Not very roomy. Hardly fit a family of 3.
20p only got you about 4 minutes. And when you gave the geezer a nicker, although he showed you 60p in the palm of his hand, when you counted if afterwards it was only ever 40p. How does that work?
Weren't that great on extras either. No AC or cruise or parking sensors. Not even a radio or an 8 track.
I could have put up with all that in the name of saving the slug or whatever it is we are currently supposed to be saving but there were 2 issues that put the kaibosh on it it for me.
1) Everybody kept bumping into me.
2) that bloody great pole up the back connected to to the roof.
VauxhallViva, A friend of mine has a Jaguar i pace and he says it's about organising his day a bit better, using his app to find rapid charging points etc. I think it's all about re educating people then it will become the norm.
Really interesting reply RK. And I do admire you taking the plunge to lower your own personal carbon emissions. Let us all know about the VRFB at home progress!
I looked recently at a real world usage review of a Jaguar ipace (EVs have me tempted I must admit).
https://youtu.be/CEyfCcAbtKU
The ipace is world car of the year and has a 90kw battery similar size to the vehicle you are getting. In this review the model costs an astonishing £87k and for that the reviewer loves the drive and feel but complains that even as brand new vehicle, and with all that power, the maximum real world driving range he is getting is around 190 miles. The car usually starts the day thinking it has 244 but it does not do well (range wise) in motorway driving conditions (under constant load driven at 70mph). He uses it for a month and during that time as he dislikes the charging process/time/ inconvenience in public places, effectively drives it like "it's on a 90 mile tether" so that he can always return home and charge it overnight.
My partner regularly does daily business trips to various locations in excess of 300 miles round trip in the day and so sadly even a fully undeminished new EV would not cut it for her. I wonder if my baby grandson will be able to buy that £87k ipace in 18 years time for sub £3k as a first car? And if so just how many miles it's enormous, but still not very practical battery, will have left in it?
I'm starting to believe that green hydrogen powered vehicles may be the way to go.
Interesting thoughts @VauxhallViva. It is worth remembering that the first Nissan Leaf had a poor chemical structure and the life of the early batteries was terrible. I think we can be sure the technology has developed, and I know from talking to a few Tesla owners that they have over 100,000 miles and the battery was still giving over 70% of the original range which is quite interesting. It is worth remembering that manufacturers today are working very hard to make sure the vehicles have the optimum thermal management and also by increasing the voltage, the current is reduced so they have less stress than original systems. Only time will tell how the current new generation will fare. In a few months’ time I will be able to give a report of my own. We are currently replacing one ICE car with an electric one, we are looking at a 'Ground Source Heat Pump' system, and I am trying to persuade a VRFB manufacturer to supply me with a VRFB home energy storage system. This could if I succeed, be the first UK home installed VRFB (If anyone else manages to do this please share)!
However, even if we covered our home with solar panels there is no way we will be able to supply enough electricity to cover the electricity needs for the ground source heat pump and to charge the 93.4kWh battery in the car. But the key is to reduce emissions and make a contribution.
I do think this biggest contribution can come from central generation using wind and solar generation as well as utilising large scale energy storage. The companies can clearly make strong revenue selling the power back to the grid. There is a huge challenge and for me, the VRFB can take a large chunk of the energy storage market.
Back to long term range in EV’s and the charging infrastructure, I will be able to report back as the miles pile on starting from June!
Cheers, RK
Thought I'd have look at the economics and implications of second hand lithium EVs such as original Nissan Leafs. Not strictly Vanadium or BMN related I know but humour me...
Cheapest I could find on Auto trader was £5450 for a 2011 leaf. Most of that age seem to have 6 bars or so left out of 12 on the battery condition indicator display. So about half the original capacity that used to get them an amazing 80 miles or so on a full charge. Let's say a car of this age will get you no more than 50 miles. So even on local pottering don't go more than 25 miles from home or you're potentially not getting back!
A few years from now it will be all but unusable even for very short trips without replacing the battery pack. This appears to be another £6k. So who's buying these for so much money and with potentially a huge liability around the corner to keep it on the road?
3 years ago I travelled with my son in law over to Halifax to do a deal on a 2006 Ford focus that had done 98,000 to get him on the road with his very limited budget. We settled with the seller on £670. That car has since passed 2 Mots and only needed an oil change/set of plugs and 2 tyres. Never broken down and gets him all over the place without worry. Crucially it, and all other ICE vehicles still have the ability to travel the same distance as they did when they were new. That currently makes personal transport accessible to the vast majority of society regardless of financial means.
Unless we solve the problems of ever diminishing range from lithium EVs, there are going to be problems in society banning ICE vehicles from our streets. In particular it will disenfranchise young people. A group that has already been priced out of home ownership to a large degree.
And don't get me wrong removing ICEs is something that the world does need to see. I desperately want to see rapid change but the lithium EV revolution may not be it IMHO.