London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
Eileen
Like Tesla is the only the company does this I think you will find every large employer in the world is playing this game and Tesla plays it well they did not even have to try to get 1.5 billion dollars for building the battery factory at the Berlin factory.
Eileen
The Mercedes at $94,000 after tax break is hardly competition sure it is cheaper than Model S but does it have the performance? The Audi I think you will find it is the starting price (9 pages of 'extras') and again the performance stats do not compare. Incidentally even if they were true competition just how many do you think they can make?
Chief, Someone once described Elon as a "subsidy truffle hound", because of the way he seeks out countries who will give the most in Governent handouts.
The world's richest man paid for by the Tax Payer, or the world's richest Welfare junkie
Elon is Charles Ponzi reborn in the flesh. Every week he has a new gimmick to manipulate the share price and if you also look at the insider trades of Tesla shares, they mirror a pyramid scheme. The director and people in the board, buy and sell their own shares in high volume constantly and it make no sense except to conclude share price manipulation. Elon did not invent the electric car or Tesla. He stole company through unscrupulous deals with Ebberhard and Tarpenning who became his corporate victims. He also never solely invented PayPal as repeatedly claimed by the Tesla cult and fanboys. He is not a saint, he is a convicted securities fraudster who uses social media to misdirect investors. The crypto world is another damning case of his manipulation of the financial space. His company is not green, it is stained in dependency on oil and fossil fuels plus his raw materials mines actively use child labor slaves.
Evidence links below
Elon's conviction on fraud charges
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219
Elon's use of child labour slaves for batteries
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blood-batteries-fuel-the-fortune-of-elon-musk-qkhlvp5dr
Jep , "This company never ceases to fascinate and can be debated for centuries!"
Jep, welcome to the debate. Tesla is a one off I think. IMHO Elon is spinning plates which represents the Shareprice. It's all about that for him and the company.
Kump "when do you think audi ford vw etc will start to open their solar farms to power whole countries"
Kump, not sure what you are referring too, but it reminds me of another ridiculous Elon promise , when he claimed that the Telsa charging stations would all be powered from solar panels. Well simple engineering maths shows that in order to do that you would need a football field of solar panels. And that he was again talking garbage. (knowingly)
Eileen,when do you think audi ford vw etc will start to open their solar farms to power whole countries?
Dog "As for Robotaxis by 2020 well it was certainly a big ask and an impressive goal unfortunately still not met but that does not mean it will not come to pass a"
Dog, I think this is perhaps a difference between Tesla Fan boys and everyone else. It is clear that it was a ridiculous prediction two years ago. And it simply isn't going to happen anytime soon either.
Of course you are free to believe "that does not mean it will not come to pass", and in fact that is what Elon thrives on and wants you to believe.
Dog "ou say its all about the share price for Elon I am fairly sure its not"
I would say it is all about the Shareprice for Tesla. At the moment, without government subsidy , they do not make a profit. And even with subsidy they are low margin profits.
What this means is that if the market decided to price them at the same multiple as other auto manufacturers then the shareprice would collapse.
In fact i recently saw a calculation which showed that the Tesla SP would be 20$ if the market priced it on the same multiple as Volvo.
Dog,
"Mercedes-Benz and Audi target Tesla with aggressive pricing on new electric models"
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/mercedes-benz-audi-target-tesla-electric-pricing
Competition never stands still. The remaining gap is constantly closing.
Eileen
You say its all about the share price for Elon I am fairly sure its not. He has on a couple of occasions said that the share price was too high and got into trouble. Elon is apparently currently living in a very small two bedroom house near Spaceex Boca Chica. He takes no salary from Tesla (by law he is paid the minimum wage which he donates to a charity) yes I know he is extremely wealthy and owns an awful lot of Tesla shares. I do not believe he is driven by money. After selling Paypal he could have retired in luxury anywhere in the world and never lifted a finger again instead he takes on Tesla and founds Spaceex and works pretty much every waking hour every day and has taken no holidays for years.
Eileen
Elon is a really accomplished sandbagger he uses this tactic to divert attention from what the company is actually doing to send the competition in the wrong direction. Case in point Elon's plea for nickle producers to produce a lot more nickleI to ease battery constraints and then signing up CATL to produce hundreds of thousands on LFP batteries. I am still not sure of what to make of the Teslabot the specifications appear fairly unambitious and I would not be surprised if there was some Elon sandbagging going on here. We will not know how ridiculous the Teslabot is for a while, apparently we can expect a prototype next year. What I would say is that FSD has massive implications for the project as the robot will need to operate in the real world be able to navigate where it has to go and need to have spatial awareness which the FSD AI will be able to provide. Have you seen the Boston Dynamics robots? One of the robots has Tesla logo on the side so maybe working together.
As for Robotaxis by 2020 well it was certainly a big ask and an impressive goal unfortunately still not met but that does not mean it will not come to pass and maybe sooner than you think.
Dog "
Just one point. " I never said FSD was feature complete" , i understand you aren't saying that. But Elon HAS been saying this. I'm sure you are aware of his ridiculous "robotaxis by 2020" statement, which a lot of people did believe.
It is only now that Elon and Tesla are having to admit that they have overhyped the reality. And of course this is not the only thing Elon has made ridiculous claims about and he's still at it. (did you see his recent "dancing robot" which was a girl in a jumpsuit"
( it seems it's all abou the shareprice for Elon )
Wolf,
Gotcha that's really interesting.
Just seen this link:
https://twitter.com/CityAM/status/1440598520386387979
"London’s largest taxi company, Addison Lee, has pledged it will operate only electric vehicles from 2023.
The London firm said it is investing £160m to shift its 4,000-strong fleet to electric. This will involve putting 200 Volkswagen ID.4 vehicles on the capital’s roads every month from November."
Dog,
Thanks i'll give that a watch
Eileen
Here is a much more meaningful clip from youtube showing how to use FSD properly and how well it performs now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ofCmtWP78
As I have already stated Teslas being driven with FSD engaged are 9 times safer than cars without FSD.
I never said FSD was feature complete or that there could never be an accident and bear in mind that being involved in an accident does not necessarily indicate that the Tesla vehicle was at fault.
From the research I have done FSD will be solved by AI and that to solve anything with AI you need data vast amounts of data Tesla has about 4 billion miles and counting of real world driving data which is many orders of magnitude higher than anyone else.
The American authorities are currently conducting an evaluation of Tesla FSD and other manufacturers driver assist systems which will have very interesting results but don't hold your breath this is going to take a long time 4 billion miles of tesla data will take some going through.
Hi Eileen - I work in finance and order company cars for the qualifying employees on my payroll. Mostly higher up IT staff and top ranking salesmen.
This was the first car list post covid and after all the diesel tax issues so have added many PHEV and EV options which due to the favourable benefit in kind treatment have been largely taken up by the drivers.
Even at the lower levels we’ve got models like the Audi A3 sportback PHEV and Hyundai Kona EV.
Some of the other feedback we’ve had is that Tesla dominate the charge points as well in most service stations. So non-Tesla charging can involve queuing quite often including the time required to top up. I’m sure this will be sorted soon as the infrastructure improves and I think Elon is licensing the points out to other manufacturers.
Dog,
Lets debate point 3 now about FSD
Here is a link from Twitter today
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1440265832521551887
A lot of the MC or Tesla is due to FSD , but that may be overdone.... discuss
Wolf, are you selling Teslas or hiring them out to your drivers
Eileen
Of course you cannot see it you are not looking in the right places.
The new factories are very close to starting production with structural batteries single piece front and rear castings and a lower price.
I work with quite a large fleet (1,500 vehicles) and Tesla are like the Apple of EVs. Drivers who are interested in EVs and qualify at the level want a Tesla. I’d estimate very rough and ready that Tesla are accounting for one out of every three orders including ice cars.
The only car that comes near as popular is the X3 PHEV in the £45k range.
Dog,
There are a whole range of EVs now on the market from different manufacturers. Some are cheaper than tesla, some are more expensive. Some are clearly of better build quality, although maybe more expensive.
Any advantage you are referring has without doubt significantly narrowed in the last year alone. I'm sure you would at least agree with that. So at that rate of change then by this time next year the trend says it will be non existent.
(in other words Tesla has no "moat" to protect it's advantage as far as i can see)
Eileen
Point 4 Tesla has no technology advantage which is patently absurd who else has Over the Air updates or carbon wrapped electric motors who else can make a 5 door saloon car that can trounce ICE super cars costing multiple times the Tesla price.
So who else has the carbon wrapped motor and Over the Air Updates?
Yes there are some other (very few) very high performance EVs they are also significantly more expensive than the Tesla.
Hi Dog,
Can we debate your points. Let's take point 4
"Dog,who else can make a 5 door saloon car that can trounce ICE super cars costing multiple times the Tesla price"
So if i google for a list of EVs on the market, there are now a) lots of saloon EVs which would b) trounce an ICE super car . Just take your pick from the list.
I think I would have accepted this point a year ago, but the competition was always going to arrive, and it has now caught up it seems
Eileen
1) Gordon Johnson pretty much everything he has uttered - example Tesla sales in Europe are crashing used in the the first month of the quarter when vehicles were sold in USA and not exported to Europe. Also market share is falling which is a half truth if the market size doubles and other manufacturers sell some cars then there market share rises and Teslas market share declines even though they are selling every car they can make.
2) Numerous shorts -'Tesla are in trouble because the big boys are coming and they will make better, cheaper , more efficient EVs than Tesla' VW Audi Mercedes BMW GM Ford all big volume manufacturers of ICE vehicles all making EVs none of them are comparable to Tesla on features and price.
3) FSD is the worst driver assist system way behind Waymo, Mobileye even Blue cruise and Auto Pilot. Just have a look on Youtube for a any other than Tesla FSD being used in City driving suburban driving most of them have difficulty changing lanes on the highway.
4) Tesla has no technology advantage which is patently absurd who else has Over the Air updates or carbon wrapped electric motors who else can make a 5 door saloon car that can trounce ICE super cars costing multiple times the Tesla price