Our live Investing Matters Podcast Special which took place at the Master Investor Show discussing 'How undervalued is the UK stock market?', has just been released. Listen here.
London South East prides itself on its community spirit, and in order to keep the chat section problem free, we ask all members to follow these simple rules. In these rules, we refer to ourselves as "we", "us", "our". The user of the website is referred to as "you" and "your".
By posting on our share chat boards you are agreeing to the following:
The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. As a user you agree to any information you have entered being stored in a database. You agree that we have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic or board at any time should we see fit. You agree that we have the right to remove any post without notice. You agree that we have the right to suspend your account without notice.
Please note some users may not behave properly and may post content that is misleading, untrue or offensive.
It is not possible for us to fully monitor all content all of the time but where we have actually received notice of any content that is potentially misleading, untrue, offensive, unlawful, infringes third party rights or is potentially in breach of these terms and conditions, then we will review such content, decide whether to remove it from this website and act accordingly.
Premium Members are members that have a premium subscription with London South East. You can subscribe here.
London South East does not endorse such members, and posts should not be construed as advice and represent the opinions of the authors, not those of London South East Ltd, or its affiliates.
Initially predicting a return to market deficit in 2024, analysts now suggest a longer timeline, with the lithium market potentially bottoming out in 2025. Thus, Goldman Sachs maintains a bearish view on the market, adjusting their 12-month targets downward for China Lithium Carbonate and CME Asia CIF Lithium Hydroxide.
Known for its accurate forecasts, Goldman Sachs estimates the following prices for 2024:
Lithium carbonate: $13,377 per tonne
Lithium hydroxide: $14,263 per tonne
Spodumene 6%: $1,250 per tonne
So gold went as high as $2,088 and finished at $2,083.
Very good. Will it breach $2,100 next week? To be continued......
Not a negative post so far today!
DYOR!
P.S. Just in case , it is not understood: It is my idea that the opposing side is NOT in an "enviable" position given there is regulatory compliance of the legal and co framework as I already mentioned.
But that is just my view and this is generally known if one knows company law etc and listed rules. DYOR, NIA. Fri, 1.3.24 However, my CAVEAT: We will need to hear from RRR on this further --in the past lots of interview & said broker note, so NOT DISCUSSING ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE RRR BROKER NOTE from Clear... that is still on the RRR website.
DRC Arbitration Award outcome must COME first to establish the structure of the legal case as norm before going forward. ALL CLEAR - Mr Bell has REPEATED it many times. Fri, 1.3.24.
The major will have NO legal incentive to SETTLE EARLY and this is generally known as norm.
HOWEVER, WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING the legal case here but rather will each one of us, want to stay. Mr Bell in so many interviews has touched on this subject of INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION - refer to the link I just gave and the RRR BROKER NOTE, hence I am NOT DISCUSSING something THAT THE RRR BROKER HAS NOT ALREADY TOUCHED UPON in a formal broker note from Clear ...Brokers of RRR.
In so far as settlement is concerned, I MADE THE LEGAL ------DISTINCTION ------[AS WITH DL'S REM MEXICO] that the CONVERSATION must be had with the OPPOSING side on this matter and that if it is formalised VIA LEGAL COUNSEL, it must be SUBMITTED TO THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL ie DEFENCE OF CLAIM. I stated VERY CLEARLY, that UNTIL this conversation is done and better if it is in WRITING, --------------THERE WILL BE NO FILING OF A WRIT THAT CAN BE DONE.
Surely, every one knows this even from a personal perspective -----No High Court will entertain a claim IF both legal parties have NOT discussed if THERE CAN BE AN AMICABLE SETTLEMENT. Same for RESOLUTIONS TO THE REGULATOR in the UK ----------it is called "DEAD-LOCK" ie one side will NOT settle in any way, then ONLY CAN THE UK REGULATOR OR FO hear the case or claim or even qualify. Time must also pass to hear from the other side. ALL COMMONLY KNOWN.
That is why is SAID FAIR VALUE will be heavily discounted if there is to be settlement. I DO NOT KNOW AT THIS TIME, THE MINING INDUSTRY's % SETTLEMENT AND THERE IS GUIDANCE ON THIS -THERE IS FOR ALL SETTLE,ENTS to show fair value.
I thought it was clearly understood as I developed the DRC litigation in 2 parts ie DRC Commercial Court in Kinshasa and at International Arbitration. FROM MR BELL, I RECALL HE SAID THEY HAVE TAKEN LEGAL ADVICE ie RRR lost Musoni and from recall , the Clear ...Broker Note [link I gave for major shareholders of RRR and click icon, research reports], that they have taken initial legal advice already.
SO, WHEN RRR NEXT REPORTS, WE, HOLDERS EXPECT TO HEAR IF THE NEXT STAGE WILL OR WILL NOT BE PURSUED upon further specialist legal counsel with expertise in DRC in particular and in general. DL 's REM Mexico has done this step and one can read KDNC's RNS that upholds what I said needs to be done first - REM Mexico has hired CLIFFFORD CHANCE, A LEADING INTERNATIONAL LEGAL COUNSEL from the London Magic Circle of international legal counsels.
Still no, answer or view as to what I expected to hear. Mr Bell will be interested, I am sure to hear the holder's views rather than just critique without any constructive feedback. As holders, we have the right to put forward our understanding etc, just as I am sure the major shareholders have done so already or not? News, Sat, 1 Mar 2024.
A settlement, by definition, will not be close to the loss (as shown by news). Perhaps if it went to trial etc. The early the settlement the larger the discount
Its a nice story but the DRC cash needs to happen before. IMO
Banburyboy,
You told this RRR forum that you were a NED [Non-Executive Director]. So, say you were a NED of RRR, there will be a board discussion going forward as norm or even an informal preview meet. To be a NED, one has to have some sort of qualifications and for this reason, one will see that on ALL websites, the director's QUALIFICATIONS are stated.
So, from this, you must be very well qualified and maybe Oxford or Cambridge or London School of Economics plus a stint in America at Harvard, an Ivy League uni.
Us, here are peasants compared to you, Sir so, we hope to hear from you as to your view on the legal merits and demerits and to pass even an A LEVEL law paper, just 1 line or 2 lines will not suffice. The law exams run for sometimes more than 1 hr and in that time, unless one hits on the principles of law and precedent law, one will NOT pass the minimum grade. For this reason, every board has a diversity of QUALIFICATIONS , hence the director of RRR who has just left has an MBA to lend to the skills of the board.
So, Sir, we await to hear and I am sure Mr Bell will be most interested to hear your views of RRR given you have been months here with your views? Yes, No? Now, the time has come , not for critique but for some INTELLIGENSIA discussion of which I am sure you are capable of via DEVELOPMENT SYNOPSIS, not 1 or 2 lines as norm?
Thank you so very much. WE, SHAREHOLDERS AWAIT TO HEAR FROM MR BANBURYBOY, A NED ? We are peasants compared to you, Sir, a NED. So, let's hear from a NED. Fri, 1.3.24.
MAJOR SHAREHODLERS OF RRR:
A/c to RRR at https://www.rrrplc.com/investors/shareholder-information/major-shareholders/ RRR stated per the TR1, Mr Charles Topham owns 16.78% of RRR, William Black 4.16% [but he has just increased his stake in recent days so please check] & Andrew N. Jones owns 4.38%.
I am quite sure they are ALSO interested in RRR future , be it at the DRC Commercial Court , Kinshasa award of some US$10m and the further US$430m international arbitration mentioned by the RRR broker. From the link above, CLICK on Broker Research to CHECK the CLEAR CAPITAL RESEARCH NOTE ON DRC $430M international arbitration ?
RRR
When they next report, RRR will have to inform what is the situation about the international arbitration. But from interviews and the said RRR broker report, it would appear that RRR has received legal advice on their position but UNTIL the DRC Commercial Court award of US$10m is awarded etc [or not and payment obtained], it will be then the next step IF legal counsel takes up the case. SO, I AM SURE THE HNW shareholders above also want to know, not just me only.
Discussion is fruitful - maybe, my legal understanding is balanced by expertise from this forum esp the resident since he said he is a NED or was? MR BELL , from what I understand READS or is told what is posted on these forums. How do I know? I heard someone stating that Mr Bell came on to this forum to .....
-------------------HELPFUL MAY BE ALSO INTERESTED IN RRR FUTURE, IS IT NOT? HIS NAME IS HELPFUL SO
I AM SURE HE WILL AFFIRM ABOUT FCA REGULATION AND HOW OUR RESIDENT GETS THE IDEA, THAT FCA HAS AUTHORITY OVER A CO'S LITIGATION OF A LOSS OF AN ASSET. I dont see any UK listed co having the FCA involved in their litigation in an international arbitration court , be it CHURCHHILL MINING OR OXUS GOLD OR EURASAIA MINING and a whole bevy of other co's?
Banburyboy
Obviously, you appear to NOT distinguish between DRC COMMERCIAL COURT ARBITRATION of US$10m vs [&] INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION for possibly US$400-430m per the RRR broker report [I provided a link before to this report]. So, in talking about FCA rules, what has the FCA to do with a CO'S LITIGATION AND WHAT AUTHORITY do they have over a co's loss of Musoni? There is NO FCA regulation on this.
But you appear to have been CONFUSED by the DRC COMMERCIAL COURT ARBITRATION of US$10m which is now to be updated per what I stated from the RRR RNS recently VS the potential case TO C O M E - see the broker report of potential to come. That is NOT this case in the local DRC Commercial Court. That will be an ISCID international arbitration case , be it in Washington DC, Paris etc.
Hope you comprede. Thanks. For discussion on a Fri, 1.3.24, the STOCK MARKET IS CLOSED. Let's show Mr Bell how good our law understand is or not. ANY VIEW must closely match what has already been advised by international legal counsel of standing. IF, IT DOES NOT MATCH, FAIL F GRADE FOR LAW PAPER. Law exams mimic real life precedence cases. So, 1 short answer in 1 sentence means F, Fail for Law exams. The law examiner want to see if one can bring out legal points of law or not. SO, I AM INTERESTED TO SEE what our resident can contribute to this discussion and the CAVEAT is it is just a DISCUSSION. After all, one poster said, [and another] that they are ONLY INTERESTED IN THE DRC LITIGATION - me, I am not interested in just the US$10m DRC commercial court potential award but rather the international litigation case. WHEN RRR REPORTS, they will say, or not say or comment since it is already in the RRR broker report. My remaining will depend on what is NEXT REPORTED by RRR RNS -ie will RRR go further upon legal counsel's advice etc as stated in my earlier post. ITS CALLED HAVING AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION. No? Yes? What else is there to discuss now given the topic everyone wants to talk about is litigation @DRC. DYOR, NIA. Fri, 1.3.24.
------------------IF SAY £100M IS WANTED FOR SETTLEMENT [of £314m [US$400m] without international arbitration?---------
Say, others think £100m is fair value. In my view only, the opposition may rather go the whole length for international arbitration and timing will be of the essence. If this is say , the case, then, it will be like Churchill Mining - they will have to pare down activities and depend on litigation only. Even Oxus Gold was the same.
CRITIQUE:
This discussion is a fruitful one. Why? Chairman of RRR may be interested to hear shareholder's various view. I recall that Mr Bell was once a director of Churchill Mining but at which stage I am not sure since I looked up the data at night. My short hypothesis is for Mr Bell to consider and as and when he next reports on any update, I will be grateful if he could fill in some of the technical details.
RESIDENTS
I gather from their own admission, they have only a pub dinner investment in RRR because someone said they are not invested. It is very easy to CRITICISE my hypothesis but I note FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT: No resident has proffered a legal view. WHAT IS THIS FCA rule ? What rule in terms of RRR litigation? At this stage, there is NO TAX to consider etc given we are DISCUSSING THE MERIT OR DEMERITS OF THE CASE in general discussion.
Theeeedude rightly analysed that I am here for the potential litigation of international arbitration RATHER THAN DRC Commercial Court Arbitration Award. IN A LEGAL EXAM, I do not think, the QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED by the resident etc on this forum. The LEGAL EXAM: DISCUSS THE LEGAL MERITS AND DEMERITS OF RRR 'S POTENTIAL INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION vs INTERNATIONAL COUNSEL'S LEGAL OPINION TO COME [or RRR has already got an opinion.] To this end, DL's REM Mexico has already done the 1st required stage: CLIFFORD CHANCE, magic circle of legal counsel has ALREADY APPROACHED the Mexican govt to discuss the litigation and to possible SETTLEMENT if it can be managed. NO INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION WILL ALLOW FILING OF A WRIT UNLESS BOTH PARTIES CAN SHOW THEY HAVE GOT DOWN TO SOME DISCUSSION as to amicably settling and if it CANNOT be settled and there is "DEAD LOCK IN RESOLUTION", only then can a case be filed. THAT IS LAW 101
To add a bit more balance any merit that the claim may have has been undermined my some of the most ridiculous positioning on success I've ever.seen.
It's why many have lost confidence. Time will tell.
Blueboy - it's undefendable tosh. News needs to consider all these FCA rules.
Mr Bell said two years ago it was imminent. He stated in last two accounts no dillution issues as he would get funds. In December it was so close he prepared alternative accounts. It was days then soon.
News insults the intelligence of investors on here.
You can only cry wolf so many times.
Certainly large numbers which does not include additional damages, lost profits and perhaps taxes to be paid on the settlement
---------------------FAIR VALUE FOR SETTLEMENT OF THE MUSONI LOSS---------------
A/c to the RRR broker report, the loss was in the region of US$400-430m from recall. That would equate to £314 Million @FX £1=US$1.27. If a funder can be found to pay for the legal costs, any potential win will have to be paid to the funder in x% as norm.
FAIR VALUE
I personally would deem that for fair value , in theory, that I would be happy with is £50m ROCK BOTTOM with no more negotiations or delay for payment +agreement. RRR would not be speaking for their DRC JV partner as they will have to undertake their own case if they wish to go to international tribunal. I am NOT PRIVY to any technical issue so I am assume that it is a case with legal clarity. Today, RRR 's share price is around 0.7p with a MARKET CAP OF £2.57M.
So, together with the US$10m payout from the arbitration [ not international arbitration], it would mean a 20x of market cap, give and take approx.
MR BELL 1.68% SHARES IN RRR.
He could technically walk away with £840,000 if the settlement by mutual agreement is £50m [+US$10m local arb award].
MAJOR
Anything to lose? Yes, compliance of the regulatory framework would say so, from my understanding as said.
HYPOTHESIS:
Agree, Mr Bell ? A reasonable outcome for the other party and for RRR. Its win win for all sides. Let's see what will actually transpire as this is only hypothesis of which I am hoping Mr Bell will be made aware of. Others can give their hypothesis but all SUBJECT to what RRR will be facing in the real world of litigation. THIS IS MR BELL'S TERRITORY - his LLB tells me so. CAVEAT: There is always IF, but and when etc. No harm discussing and to see how wrong, how right or somewhat right one is. ? DYOR. NIA. Caveat: In litigation, ANYTHING can happen given there are always legal surprises and I am not privy to the technical papers etc of the legal sort.
News, you could talk a glass eye to sleep 😴
Part 2:
As the days pass, it will be occurring to the other party, that RRR is still here and not likely to be going away. What does the other party do? As a listed co, I am sure Mr Bell is cognisant of the compliance of the regulatory framework and what minimum laws are applicable to such large entities. So, herein, Mr Bell is more cognisant than if he was not qualified in law.
So, delay brings little fruit and therefore, the waiting continues but the other party is running out of time to come to some conclusion. There is NO guarantee that the person in charge will be willing to settle instead of proceeding to the international arbitration court. I cite the case of a major financial institution in this regard wherein he said that as long as he is in charge, the co will NOT sell Bitcoin ETF. Yesterday, he was not longer CEO despite his tenure was 33 years at the co.
ABOVE HYPOTHESIS:
All the above is NORM and known. Even if one has to deal with PROBATE and the Executor, this is the procedure for all potential legal direction cases. So, in posting, the above, I will wait to see if procedural methodology is correct, not correct or somewhat correct or wrong? I use we, as in, we shareholders.
Over to Mr Bell and I am sure the major shareholders of RRR are also waiting for an outcome from the DRC litigation. Pardon typo's. News, Fri, 1 Mar 2024. DYOR. NIA. CAVEAT: I may be wrong as I am not familiar with DRC law and procedure and therefore, it is just procedural and I hope that the other party is cognisant?
From Red Rock Resources on Twitter: "Has Red Rock lost in the DRC? No. Does it have every confidence in winning? Yes. Has anyone else been paid? No. Does it control timing? Ultimately, No. So, while anything happening in the DRC will be important, do no blind yourself to opportunity elsewhere. We dont." - Red Rock Resource, 27.2.24 https://twitter.com/RRR_RedRockResources/with_replies
[I have already posted about the above from RRR RNS Reach etc.]
WHAT COULD BE HAPPENING IN THE DRC & RRR ARBITRATION?:
We have been told that the "DRAFT arbitration award" has been given to RRR. DRC govt is waiting to be formed etc post the elections. ALL legal parties will have had the said draft. As norm, IF the parties DONT agree to the draft, then there is a delay but in the main, it was drafted from a pre-view as norm. IF ALL THE LEGAL PARTIES agree without any significant changes/error, they HAVE TO LEGALLY SIGN THE AGREEMENT. Then , the Commercial Court Judge will sign off the Arbitration Award. It must then BE STAMPED for it to have legal status. It is then legally circulated to all the parties.
RRR or the JV partner in DRC will ISSUE A LEGAL DEMAND LETTER to the payer to pay WITHIN x days as norm. The payer will send it to their accounts dept and it requires signatures as the amount is not small and no employee can just issue such a large check. Then, once BANKED & CLEARED, RRR may issue an RNS as norm.
This is just procedural theory 101. THE PAYER: The payer is aware or ought to be aware or cant be not aware that RRR , once they receive the proceeds, say, will have £££ to pay to open a legal file to initiate INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION. The legal counsel may be able to find or locate funding for the potential litigation if there is a case to be made. The defence party is also aware that as a public listed co, they have to REPORT if litigation is taken against them for such a substantial sum @notes to the accounts. The nature of the potential litigation is not something that is the 1st time in the DRC given there is a lot of PRECEDENT LEGAL CASES already + Dept of Justice USA & SFO , UK have done international investigations into the country's mining deals etc. CASE IN ITSELF SHOULD BE MORE SIMPLE as the co does not have to prove up a new case as if it has never happened before in that country. SO, BARRING TECHNICAL error, it should take some 2 years if it goes all the way, give and take, from other cases. RRR would at the very least have to signal the other party that it is WILLING TO SETTLE as that is a PRE-REQUISITE BEFORE the co can take an international tribunal case forward. ONLY IF THE OTHER PARTY WILL NOT SETTLE, only then can any co take and initiate the filing of the writ. ALL 101.
Mr Bell, Chairman's qualification is MA & LLB, the latter of which is a LAW DEGREE. Mr Bell, at the very least would have to signal to the other party that his door is open to discussion relating to the matter and proffer an amicable tone. As th
And the good news Pumpky is that gold is now $2,078: it has just kept going.
The question is now, will it breach $2,100?
But you knew that didn't you?
DYOR
Spec - you know I'm the only paid poster on here :)
H5O before you start its a type of humour known as "irony".
We all need to see the funny side investing here.
Helpful You are correct
on point 3- Funding is easier not only for RRR but other companies as well who can then use those funds to JV on RRR gold properties
The gold price is up $32 as I write this and see reports that Bitcoin (which I do not follow) is reaching all time highs as well
Ah Pumpky, a good question but that is not the only factor relevant to RRR. Things that get affected by a higher gold price:
1. It means other companies will be keener on doing deals and/or JVs
2. The valuation of gold in the ground is greater
3. It is is easier to funding
4. It means our royalty from the El Limon mill will be greater than it otherwise would be once payments restart and it means Soma will keener than ever to get it back into production
5. It means it should be easier to spin out/IPO gold assets
6. It means the revenue from Bilbale will be greater than it otherwise would be, once it starts (probably 8 weeks away)
But you knew all that anyway being one of our resident experts who checks everything!
And BTW gold is currently $2,074. Looks like the market has decided gold should be higher.
DYOR
How much Gold are they actually mining as of today?LOL
Gold currently $2,070. A big step up in the last couple of days. Lets see if it holds above $2,050 at the close.
DYOR
For Noirua:
IF, Red Rock Resources went on to the INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION COURT, be it in Paris, Washington etc, then it could be reported in "GLOBAL ARBITRATION REVIEW."
Having checked on International Arbitration , these are the following legal firms that are nuanced:
-Addleshaw Goddard
-Pinsent Masons
-Norton Rose Fulbright
-White & Case LLP
If all the above London legal firms including Clifford Chance, the leading legal counsel for international arbitration [from the magic circle of international legal counsel] were approached to enquire further at the Commercial Court, Kinshasa relating to RRR Arbitration case, I am quite sure they can help TO DO A SEARCH and CONFIRM the political situation ie as and when it could be resolved. BUT, it will cost more than one's RRR shareholdings , I am quite sure as norm. So, I await the RRR UPDATE on DRC Arbitration -cheaper that way but for those who really, really , want to know, YES, there are legal avenues to do a LEGAL SEARCH via legal counsel specialising in the DRC. Hope that helps as you have enquired over the other forum how to check etc. Thank you. Fri, 1 Mar 2024 DYOR, NIA. I am NOT suggesting to do the search but merely to inform that a search can be done as norm.