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Utilitywise Share Chat (UTW)



Share Price: 5.50Bid: 5.20Ask: 6.19Change: -0.195 (-3.42%)Faller - Utilitywise
Spread: 0.99Spread as %: 19.04%Open: 5.50High: 5.50Low: 5.50Yesterday’s Close: 5.695


Share Discussion for Utilitywise


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Time2Buy
Posts: 7,761
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.50
Bidding 1M
Fri 15:30
That is a big change
 
Time2Buy
Posts: 7,761
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.50
It's gone Blue
Fri 10:27
Interesting that this should be up today.
Kevinmac
Posts: 5
Opinion:Strong Buy
Price:5.30
RE: Late results
Fri 08:35
Thanks for your comments, its helped me to decide
Handofjohnson
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.15
What is a customer
Fri 01:20
P.s. when I said I was not sure how UW qualified or quantified a custoner I was being facetious and answered the question within the post. E.g. after the 12 month LOA runs out UW have no rights to the customer for renewal etc.

Also the point being that their current customer numbers resembles Schrödinger's Cat Paradox in that they will have had zero contact with the majority since signing. Remember UW receive payment from supplier, supplier bills the customer.

I have a mortgage with Santander, I used a broker. I consider myself a client of Santander.
Handofjohnson
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.15
RE: Late results
Fri 01:08
Nocashqxl - please read the post and gain an understanding before you reply.

I did not mention revenue recognition. The order book is the sales generated not cash (or claimed cash) in the bank. UW are no longer recognising this as revenue, however they are recognising as sales. if you read my posts you will understand why I believe this amount isn't wholly accurate.

As for the comment ref what constitutes a customer, you really haven't understood that point at all.

I believe we pulled apart your "friends" claim(s) recently so I think you should just leave that be!

As for your explanation of the order book dropping due to companies using less energy; 85% of UW customers are SME and do not utilise such technologies - as such this is for new sales not existing, therefore consumption is irrelevant.

They have not dealt with or negotiated bank debt.

The share price dropped a relatively small amount after the former CEO sold his holding - this has nothing to do with the ssues pertaining to the remainjng 95% since April 2014.

Kevinmac - honestly at this price it could be worth a punt. The rewards to risk ratio is decent and as you say if it increases to 30-50p it will be a sound investment.

As a caveat to that I would say cash flow is the biggest risk as they could quite simply run out of it.

There are many mouths to feed and huge day to day costs. No point having income receivable in June next year if the pot is empty now.

Think of it this way - the absolute best case scenario for a customer sale is if a customer is called today and have just taken over a business and are out of contract. It's then A 2-3 week registration process until the account is 'live' with a new supplier. UW will then get paid 45-60 days later dependent upon supplier. Therefore the absolute best case scenario is a deal completed today is paid out in 2 and a half months time.

In reality that will very rarely happen. 99% of the potential customers contacted will be contract. Whether that be 3, 6, 9 months, it means cash flow is an issue.

Sales agents could hit their target month after month and not easily generate a single £ for a considerable period of time.

Smaller consultancies can circumvent this by giving autonomy and actively targeting certain business types or new businesses. UW are unable to do this due to GDPR and the sheer volume of data required for their agents to make hundreds of calls each day.

UW were in an excellent position and have thrown it all away, while the competition has done incredibly well.

I recently had a look at Northern Gas & Power accounts on companies house and over the same period they have done incredibly well. Now opening offices in Singapore, Texas, Malta etc and sitting with £20mill + in the bank

The same can be said of others. Utility Alliance opened up additional offices in Sheffield and south Africa. They only began trading 3 years ago. This is a simple industry with huge profit margins that has
nocashqxl
Posts: 11
Opinion:Strong Buy
Price:5.15
RE: Late results
Fri 00:16
Hi Kevinmac, For myself I have brought a lot of share in this company. The last lot at 5p brought just over £15k worth earlier this week, before that at 5.5p and 8p and the first lot at 18p. Now hold just 490,000 share average just over 8p. From what my friend saying about the company over the last year or so and how well he doing, I feel this is only a hic-up in the share price. I feel most of this problem in share price is Thompson dumping his share to for what ever reason, and the way things have been done in the past. I also think the share price could jump to 10p and onto 15-20p once result are announce and it clear the company is not going bust. So yes I would buy and have done so. Hope that helps.
Kevinmac
Posts: 5
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.30
RE: Late results
Thu 23:36
Appriciate your explanation re customers definition which would normaly feed revenue growth. The last trading statement claims £55m under current accounting rules.
At 7% EBITDA this would generate nearly £4million per year

This is a trading site so my interest is to buy or not, at a SP of 5p would you buy or sell?
nocashqxl
Posts: 11
Opinion:Weak Buy
Price:5.15
RE: Late results
Thu 21:34
At the moment the company cannot say anything till the results are out.
They have change the way it calculates revenue to when contracts go LIVE. Which makes them UTW customers, as to when companies signed up. They are now only paid as long as the contract is live (which is my understanding) and are paid at various time long the length of the contract. Also according to my friend they have a very high retention of those customers.
As to the drop in revenue, this can be put down to a few things. More accurate accounting, companies with the new smart energy systems using less energy, and yes a few going else where. Although the number of customer has been increasing slowly.
They have already said in there last update about the banks and the overdraft and loans . they have talked to them and there are no issues going forward and have reduced there debt.
As to the share price, if someone from any small company dumps over 10 million plus share over a few months. That is going to destroy companies share price. In this case It was done it such away to cause maximum damage to the company. If he just wanted out he could have offered his share to other investor and got more money then he did.
As for the late results, there might be another reason for the delays, reading the last update it mention getting in touch with past client's and existing customers. Maybe because of the way past accounts where done there might be some issue's. If so they maybe trying to get everything squared away legally once and for all with everybody involved. We know one company they owe money too and paid more than half back. It could be they are trying to do deals to sort things out which is why things are taking so long.
If that is the case than with the share price in it's currant state, getting all the bad news out in one go makes sense. As long as the company is not going bust the share price will recover fairly quickly.
Handofjohnson
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.15
RE: Late results
Thu 20:01
I'm not sure how they qualify or quantify a customer. They say they have 40000+ customers.

A customer does not agree a supply contract with Utilitywise but with a supplier. All Utilitywise have is a letter of authority to enter into a contract on behalf of the specified name stated. The letter of authority is only place for a period of 12 months.

The supplier contracts range from 12 months - 5 years. Over 70% are between 3-5 years.

I assume Utilitywise are still including customers they signed up 5 years ago as their customers, yet they have absolutely no claim on them. When the customer comes to renew they are free to chose whoever they wish.

There will also be a significant amount of those contracts signed 3-5 years ago that are no longer valid due to a number of factors e.g change of tenancy, business failure, sale of business, change of trading name - amongst others.

Point is they sign the customer, get paid by the supplier, not the customer and then contact them 3-5 years later to try and enter into a new agreement - I would not class that as their customer and I doubt the customer would consider themself as belonging to Utilitywise.

The local supermarket class customer numbers on a weekly/monthly basis not someone who shopped there once 5 years ago and might be dead now!

As for the order book, 16% is a big decrease. The main issue is that the sales/orders are being recognised up to 20 months in advance of revenue being received.

Suppliers will allow new contracts to be signed up to 18 months before they end. The benefit to the consumer is they fix the price at the point of contract acceptance. In previous years 80% of the total contract was received upon contract acceptance by the supplier - they now do not get a single £.

You then add a further 2 months post live date before revenue is actually received from the supplier. The order book therefore is not a barometer of cash flow or the current financial position of the company.

As I have stated on a previous post, sales people can be hitting targets but not generating any actual revenue. Of course they still have to receive their salary and the costs associated e.g. pension, HR, payroll, admin, marketing etc not to mention the additional bloated infrastructure of Utilitywise such as their "well being teams"

Until these contracts actually go 'live' there is still a risk of customers agreeing contracts elsewhere or having a change in circumstances. Business' receive hundreds of calls a year from suppliers and brokers and if they think they can get a better deal they will take it.

It simply then becomes a lottery as to which supplier registers the meter first upon the window opening. The order book is highly inflated IMO.
Kevinmac
Posts: 5
Opinion:Strong Buy
Price:5.30
RE: Late results
Thu 19:03
The recent facts are a trading statement in September which wasn’t so bad, a sell off of shares by a previous director ( who might of bought them back again as a private investor), a reduction of fixed cost which is a sensible approach given the revenue reduction and lots of opinion.

If someone has a breakeven point of £3:40 I can understand why they may be upset but if your breakeven is under 30p I really don’t see the problem, even at today’s 5p sp. I guess that may be the issue.

Order book is £55 million, dept has reduced, customer numbers are up, profits from revenue recognition have been moved from FY 17 to the future. H1 results will be in soon and perhaps , given the recent history, to build confidence they want to confirm current situation before issuing YE result, not due until Jan 2019.?
Handofjohnson
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.15
RE: Late results
Thu 18:01
Kevinmac - I'll explain to you why there is "hysteria"

*4th April 2014 Share price £3.70 - 13th Dec 2018 share price £0.05

*Revolving credit/finance agreement due to be renegotiated after breaking several banking covenants.

*Removal of focus from core business and becoming "jack of all trades"

*No/little industry experience at boardroom level.

*Reducing outbound sales numbers yet keeping cost consuming back office functions - whilst also increasing inbound numbers as they have stated this a strategy they believe will add value.

*Loss of experienced sales staff due to;

A) volatility/lack of job security within a company constantly offering voluntary redundancy and/or the threat of compulsory redundancies.

B)Operating in a saturated market place in the North East of England where there are numerous competitors offering better remuneration packages and job security.

*Change in relationships and lack of trust from suppliers has significantly altered the business model and cash flow. No £££'s upfront, revenue only allocated on live deals on an upfront contract % or drip fed monthly.

*Increase in consumer awareness and website comparison tools for business' which were previously only available to the domestic market

*Terrible investor relations - no updates, no attempt to convey any element of positivity. Late returns etc

I could go on but my diner is ready.
Kevinmac
Posts: 5
Opinion:Strong Buy
Price:5.30
RE: Late results
Thu 17:32
They must publish by end Jan or make a formal statement. Last trading update showed 16% reduction in orders which isn’t a huge problem but would require a reduction in fixed cost ( staff cost) to compensate which it seems they have done. Not sure what the hysteria is about unless other motives.
nocashqxl
Posts: 11
Opinion:Weak Buy
Price:5.30
RE: Late results
Thu 12:14
Clearly with the delay in announcing the results, some bad news is on the way. But they could be legacy issue's as the new auditor's are/ have been going though 5 years of deals. Although last year results where not publish till 22 march this year, let's hope we not waiting that long this time round. For me and most on here the main thing is they are not going bust or heading that way. As long as that the case then a 5p share price should be a bargain. Talking to my friend who works there, it's business as usual. He still signing up new customer, and the retention rates are very high. Over 42,000 customers. I don't see much down side on the share price at 5p unless the company go's bust.
horsetrader2
Posts: 3,234
Opinion:Sell
Price:5.30
Late results
Thu 07:40
The later the results, the worse the news imo.
They can’t keep blaming legacy issues for everything and they appear to be resembling a rudderless ship.
new2trade
Posts: 372
Opinion:Buy
Price:5.20
Nice end of day buy!!
Tue 16:56
Nice to see that end of day buy today for just over 16 k and the 15 k yesterday , confidence returning slowly , or do they know something we don't Mmmmmmmm good look all!!! Be nice to hear something soon
spenda
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:5.075
RE: Annual results etc
Tue 10:40
hi
please could you clarify the answer as the monthly values don't add up for 24 staff nor that they equate to 1/3rd of that side..did you mean 240 staff?..how many are doing that volume please
Handofjohnson
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.90
RE: Annual results etc
Mon 17:24
You have provided zero facts/proof.

What is fact is that there were 60 redundancies in October https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/business/business-news/utilitywise-cuts-nearly-60-roles-15264035

There were a further 50+ redundancies last year https://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/firm-offers-hope-for-workers-fearing-redundancy-at-company-which-is-cutting-jobs-1-8776084

Competitor Northern Gas and Power approached and recruited 75 of Utilitywise's 'best' sales staff last year - https://www.warnergoodman.co.uk/news/employment-law-case-update-utilitywise-plc-v-northern-gas-and-power-ltd-ors

It is also known in the industry that Utility Alliance 'poached' the head of field sales team and most of the experienced 'closers' within that team. These 'closers' are hand picked to join this team and contact leads/clients that have been generated.

It is known that the replacement for the 'head of field sales' left to take up the same position with Great Annual Savings, and again took many of the better staff.

It is known the owners of Utility Alliance, Norther Gas and Power and Great Annual Savings all began at Utilitywise. They all cheery picked who they wanted to take with them from training staff to sales staff.

Have a look on LinkedIn at staff at the companies stared above and see just how many worked at Utilitywise.

Check the Glassdoor reviews to see just how many disgruntled staff there are/were working at Utilitywise.

Search #utilitywise on instagram/Twitter. There are no recent posts from staff with this tag (with the exception of a few around the world cup incentive). There were posts from Christmas parties from staff 3 years ago, there is a huge drop in the amount of social activity and staff posting about Utilitywise. This is a great indicator of the morale within a workplace, how happy/proud staff are to work there etc.

It is also known that the monthly target for a Full time sales agent is £10k revenue per month. As within any sales industry 20-30% exceed, 40-50% meet and 20-30% are below expectations. If your team of 23 all met their target that would be £230k per month revenue. This is incredibly unlikely/impossible. To say that your team of 23 is bringing in £1-2 million a month is ridiculous and pure fantasy.

I deal in fact my friend and I do not believe for 1 second you work for this company.
spenda
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.90
RE: Annual results etc
Mon 16:45
if from memory a telesales might do 80-100k p/yr of which 30-40k would go to sales costs. then are you saying 24 people are doing what you mention every month or eas that nust for the october contract round and that eas based on 3-yrs worth of value.
sorry for my confusion but i am trying to figure current monthly run rate per sales person.
also i thought there were hundreds of staff but how does 24 staff make up 1/3rd of enterprise sales staff
Uwemployee7
Posts: 3
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.90
RE: Annual results etc
Mon 16:25
In response to spenda. 24 staff and yes.
Handsofjohnson facts are facts.
Handofjohnson
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.80
Gullible
Mon 15:05
gullible
/'g?l?b(?)l/Submit
adjective
adjective: gullible
easily persuaded to believe something; credulous.
"an attempt to persuade a gullible public to spend their money"
synonyms: credulous, over-trusting, over-trustful, trustful, easily deceived/led, easily taken in, exploitable, dupable, deceivable, impressionable, unsuspecting, unsuspicious, unwary, unguarded, unsceptical, ingenuous, naive, innocent, simple, inexperienced, unworldly, green, as green as grass, childlike, ignorant; More
foolish, silly;
informalwet behind the ears, born yesterday
"the swindler preyed upon gullible old women"
antonyms: cynical, suspicious
NMH19
Posts: 8,775
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.80
Employee number seven
Mon 14:34
Followed your lead and bought a few more . Hard to believe you can buy 15,000 shares for circa £750!!
Fingers crossed. Gla
NMH19
Posts: 8,775
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.80
UWemployee7
Mon 13:26
Do you have a canteen at your site? Any outside catering provided? Can you get a good cup of coffee? Food and drink often improves staff morale.... is it complementary??
Thanks
spenda
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.80
RE: Annual results etc
Mon 13:21
and does yours make up 1/3rd of enterprise and there is corporate/EIC on top?
spenda
Posts: 35
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.80
RE: Annual results etc
Mon 13:18
thanks
how many staff would be in your team that make up those numbers?
Uwemployee7
Posts: 3
Opinion:No Opinion
Price:4.80
RE: Annual results etc
Mon 12:52
The first question is above my pay grade but I will give you the information I know...
In terms of revenue, we do 1-2 million per month.
With the loss of staff this time around being managers we don’t expect many renewal opportunities to go elsewhere. I would also say renewals are also achieving good revenue value with a high renewal rate percentage. Just mention about your opportunity in investment. I have invested myself this morning. As we feel the numbers will be positive.




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